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Season 4, Episode 6

All About OKRs

With Author, Lecturer and Speaker, Christina Wodtke

About the Episode

In this episode, we’re talking with Christina Wodtke. Christina wrote a book that’s called Radical Focus, and it’s all about OKR objectives and key results. So we’re going to be digging into the strategic accountability for your company and how you can do better with goal setting. Christina has helped grow numerous companies in Silicon Valley, like LinkedIn and Yahoo, Zynga, and the New York Times. And through that, she’s learned a lot about this management system called OKRs. In addition to Radical Focus, she wrote a couple of others books including The Team That Managed Itself and Pencil Me In. She also teaches over at Stanford.
What I loved about this episode is that we get really tactical about how you can start OKRs is for the first time, what makes a good objective from a bad objective, how you can have key results that are actually measurable and quantitative, and then how to build this into the culture of your company so that you’re not just setting goals and forgetting about them.

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Full Transcript

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31:31

Chris:
What’s up everybody. I’m Chris Ronzio, founder, and CEO of Trainual. And as always, we’re taking pages from other leader’s playbooks. So you can put them in yours. As you heard in the intro today, we’re talking with Christina Wodtke. Christina wrote a book that’s called radical focus, and it’s all about OKR objectives and key results. So we’re going to be digging into the strategic accountability for your company and how you can do better. Goal setting. Christina has helped grow numerous companies in Silicon Valley, like LinkedIn and Yahoo Zynga, and then the New York Times. And through that, she’s learned a lot about this management system called okay, ours. She wrote this book radical focus, and she also wrote a couple of others, the team that managed itself and pencil me in and she teaches over at Stanford. So what I loved about this episode is that we get really tactical about how you can start OKR is for the first time, what makes a good objective from a bad objective, how you can have key results that are actually measurable and quantitative, and then how to build this into the culture of your company so that you’re not just setting goals and forgetting about them. So take a listen. You’ll learn a lot about her version of goal setting that a ton of companies are starting to adopt, like Trainual. Enjoy.

Chris:
Where are you calling from? Everybody is somewhere different these days, remote world. Where are you today?

Christina:
I’m in Palo Alto. Still locked in my condo. So

Chris:
Not a bad place to be locked up. I love Palo Alto.

Christina:
Yeah, it’s really pretty. Now we actually do get threes that change leaves, but it’s still warm enough. The highest can be 55. So not that it still feels like, you know, Christmas is coming. Yeah.

Chris:
Fall Christmas vibe, but still beautiful. Like California should be all right. So you’ve been at some amazing companies. And if anyone finds you on LinkedIn, they’ll see, you know, huge brands like Zynga and LinkedIn and MySpace and Yahoo. And so from all that different experience in different roles, how did you become this worldwide OKR?

Christina:
Oh gosh. Um, well it really came out of being at Zynga. You know, everybody knows that John Doerr was the individual who brought OKR to the Valley and we were a John Doerr company. And what’s really interesting is, uh, we Zynga did it a bit differently than Google did it and other folks did it. Um, so because I was there very early on using OKR, uh, when I quit Zynga, I started consulting with some startups, trying to figure out what I was going to do next. And they just needed, okay. Are so badly. They were all over the place, every shiny object going by. So, um, I started, you know, bringing OKR to these startups. And then I realized that maybe I said, write a book to get better rates because the OKR has really helped a lot of folks. So they had evolved a bit, quite a bit from the original John Doerr. And they’ve been battle-tested I suppose.

Chris:
So, yeah. So now field-tested battle-tested and your book radical focus has become, I think, one of the most popular books and for anyone that’s listening, check this out again, radical focus, achieving your most important goals with objectives and key results. It is a cool style because it tells a story it’s not just a textbook, right? It tells the story of a business, a startup that’s growing. And so I want to hone in on this idea of OKR is because so many businesses are at this point in the year where they’re trying to plan for what they’re going to do in 2021. So for anyone that’s just listening and has maybe only heard surface level what an OKR is, can you give us the introductory overview?

Christina:
Absolutely. So it is an acronym and I think sometimes we get a little sloppy going our, okay, our SIS, okay. Ours, that it’s objective and key results. So the objective is very inspiring language. It’s like, um, a mission statement for three months, and that’s really there to motivate the people who, um, are very mission-driven. And then the key results are numbers that will change in the world if we accomplish our mission. So that’s for the people who are really quantitative. And so by having qualitative and quantitative goals put together into a package, then we create a space for people to figure out how are we going to do this? You know, they can change up their tactics. Uh, they can use a pipeline of a bunch of different hypotheses of things they can do to reach the objective. And it really empowers, um, a lot of teams, um, Marty Cagan and I have been chatting back and forth about this, this movement that seems to be going on, um, which is empowering teams to make their own decisions, to setting the goals and saying y’all can figure out how to get there from here. And I’m very excited about this.

Chris:
So we just recently started using OKR is at train UIL. And before that, we did some form of goal setting. So for anybody else, that’s doing goal setting. How would you say that this OKR system is an upgrade?

Christina:
Yeah, it’s funny because people it’s common question is how is it different from a smart goal or how is it different from KPIs? I kind of joke that it’s like KPIs will the soul. Um, but I think a lot of people think about goal setting, but they don’t think about goal achieving. So with OKR is we have, again, this, this motivational goal with real numbers, like a smart, but then we have the rituals and the rituals are what really, really makes OKR is work. We have the Monday morning, what are we all going to do towards our OKR is we have the Friday afternoon, let’s celebrate our progress. And, uh, it’s even built into status emails and, you know, we set goals and we forget them set, and forget is the single most dangerous thing we can do. And okay, ours gives you this rhythm that reminds you over and over again, that in the chaos. And we know about chaos right now with the pandemic in all this crazy, crazy, you can actually still do the thing that really matters to you. It doesn’t get lost in the wash.

Chris:
I love that. So there’s an accountability layer to it that just keeps it part of the day-to-day. So it doesn’t just get set and forget. I love that. Now, as you’re starting to create these for your company, if someone’s going through this the first time, how do you bubble these up? Like how do you involve the team and figure out what your, what your top OKR should be?

Christina:
Yeah, I mean, um, I’ve seen OKR it’s begun over and over and over again in different companies, trying them for the first time. And with larger companies, I usually say, take one of your strongest teams and introduce them to the concept of OKR S, uh, you can give them my book. Obviously, I would recommend it because I like to eat and pay my mortgage and all that good stuff, but, uh, you know, uh, and then have that team figure out how it’s going to work for them. And the impulse is often to give OKR to a struggling team, hoping that will fix them, but that will often cause okay, ours to get messed up, and then nobody wants to do them. So just this one pilot strong team, and then they’ll figure out what has to be changed for our culture. Like if you’re highly, highly dated data-driven, then the OKR becomes sort of a cover sheet, a big overview over all your data.

Christina:
If you’re a small company that’s, you know, very young and moving fast, the OKR reminds you of what you’re trying to do with your company and you just use Foursquare. So, um, it really depends. I’ve seen companies succeed when the execs start it and do it by themselves as well, which is interesting, you know? Uh dogfooding and it kind of gives the rest of the company a chance to see that the execs are committed. So those are a couple of ways, either a pilot group or the exact start, but don’t have everybody do it all at once. That just ends badly. It ends so badly. I’ve got people who call me up and go, Christina, we started with OKR and everybody hates it. Where are we going to do? How are we going to get it going? And, uh, that’s hard. That’s really hard. Yes.

Chris:
So don’t do it all at once. I think that’s a great, great lesson. So we started doing it with just our executive team in Q4 of this year. And we went for three months. Anybody else heard the phrase OKR, and then we introduced it to everybody that said, just so you know, we’re testing this thing out, but I think it’s a great idea to just pilot it. Um, you mentioned giving the book to whoever the strong team is. So I’m going to say to anybody that’s listening right now, tweet this posted on Instagram, do anything on social media, and do add Chris Ronzio at Trainual. And if you want the, you know, just share this episode, I’ll send you a copy of the book. I’ll buy the book and send it to you. So at least give you another, another one royalty Christina.

Christina:
That’s awesome. Um, yeah, I think, um, I think what’s been really surprising to me too, is how many individuals, um, are also adopting for their lives. And, um, I think that’s, I in companies it’s terrible to have individual OKR. It’s too much micromanagement. It’s too low level, but for individuals, um, and I bring this up, cause you mentioned accountability. Um, I’ve seen a lot of people build these little OKR groups where they read the book and then they use it to keep their personal life on track. And they, instead of sending the stamps email to your boss, you send it to your, you know, two friends, and that works for accountability. And I love that you say accountability because I think that is really what makes it work. Um, I’m part of a little accountability group as well with a couple of, uh, female exec friends of mine.

Christina:
And it’s so funny. One of them is hardcore into process. She’s all getting things done. Like every OKR, the progress is like 80% complete, 60% complete. And then the other friend is just like, ah, I don’t know. I mean, I, maybe I should be a coach or maybe I should do this instead. And her OIC errors are, are kind of messy, but over the last two years, she’s gone from, um, working internally to being a consultant, to actually being a process coach. And she’s got clients and she’s happy and that’s, that’s the magic of accountability and the rhythm. And so I try to tell people, don’t get crazy, trying to make the perfect OKR. The important part is really that, that weekly ritual that Recurly retrospective. So you don’t forget that this was something that mattered to you.

Chris:
It’s such a great point. So don’t get fixated on the specific. Okay. Or you can always change your mind, but the accountability, the check-ins make it so that you are making progress in some direction, even if it’s not in the original direction. So can you give us, I guess, an example of what would be a really good objective versus a bad objective if we’re trying to craft one of these?

Christina:
Yeah. And I w I just want to clarify it’s, um, the wordsmithing, I worry about you probably shouldn’t be changing your OKR unless something major happened, but don’t get really, I used to do rational, um, rational, Rose. I think I’ve cut. It was so long ago and people get really caught up in the wordsmithing and, um, that will hold you back. So a really good, um, uh, objective, again, it needs to inspire you, like when you wake up in the morning and you hear that and you’re going to go to work, are you like, yeah, I’m going to change the world today, or are you like snooze, snooze, snooze. So, um, a little inspiration into the language of that, right? So a great objective could be, um, you know, delight our customers with the perfect, uh, microphone, um, at the price they can afford or, you know, just something, um, joyful, you know, we’re going to delight people, we’re going to own a market.

Christina:
Um, and again, this is cultural. Some cultures are very, you know, boom, boom, boom, very aggressive and some are more nurturing, but that objective should inspire you. And then the key results should never, ever be tasks. They have to result. And this is the one thing everybody messes up and it actually is important to get this piece, right, is what do you want to change in the world? So what number is going to go up? So you don’t want to put a key result. That is like a write in my blog every day. You know, you could write in your blog every day and no numbers would change. It’s, it’s just a hypothesis of what might be better. So you want your key results to be, um, I have 20,000 followers or, um, I’m number one in Amazon’s bestseller list for business, or, uh, you know, I have 20 new clients. Those are all good ones because you can take multiple approaches to get there. And it gives that team, the flexibility they need, and they give you the flexibility if you’re doing it for your own personal use.

Chris:
Okay. I w I want to dig into this because I think you said it, this is where people mess it up. And even in our own business, we’ve created key results that almost feel like projects or mini-projects, you know? And so you get them, in this space, where are you creating a list of tasks? Is it a list of projects? And so what you’re saying, it sounds like is that the key results are really measurements they’re numbers. And then is it that there are projects or tasks that are attached to those or where is the attachment?

Christina:
Um, yeah, so I, I encourage people and this might be just semantics, but to move away from Rome roadmaps to moving to pipelines. So if you think about it, you’ve got this objective, um, which is, uh, being the biggest process podcast on Apple store, whatever. Right. You know, and, um, what would that look like? Like how would, you know, you were the best, would it be how many subscribers you have and it’d be your star rating? Would it be like, what are those things that would say, Oh yeah, you’re the best you put it up, right? Those are your key results. Now, how the heck are you going to get there? So you start brainstorming, how many things you could do, you know, um, the quality of your guests, the quality of your microphone. I have no idea. So you put them down and you go through them and you say, okay, how hard is this to do right.

Christina:
Efforts, um, and confidence, how sure am I that you’re actually going to be able to, this will move things, right? Oh, there’s a third one. I’m trying to remember explicitly confidence, uh, impact. That’s the third one, how much would a move it? Okay. Confidence impact and, um, and effort and those, and you can rate all of those. So something really easy to do, and you don’t, you’re not sure it’s going to make a difference and only make a small bit different. Maybe you don’t want to do it, even though it’s easy because that’s, that’s the instinct, right? The low-hanging fruit, we tend to do those first, but if it’s not going to have an impact, you don’t want to do it. So you’ve got your OTRs here. You’ve got your pipeline here and you can check them across from one to the other, put them next to each other. Um, and the pipeline evaluation can usually be done by a good product manager. Um, but it could be done by an exec as well if you wanted. Um, I think that having that pipeline is critical because when something’s not working, you can pull it and switch the result. You know, what the results are that you want, but you can swap out your efforts

Chris:
Makes sense. So it’s not about the task or the project, because those could change. It’s about the result that you’re trying to get to, and you need to be flexible on what the activities

Christina:
Absolutely. Like, let’s say you’re tweeting every day, you know, 20 times a day about it, and a month go by and you don’t have more subscribers. Well, that’s an effort that probably should go away. And then, so you can switch those tactics out when you meet you.

Chris:
Okay. Makes sense. So, one of the other roadblocks we ran into as we were crafting our own, okay. Ours is everyone around the leadership team was not necessarily tied to one of the key results. And so I’m sure you’ve seen this too, but how do you enroll the whole team or the whole company, if they don’t feel like they’re connected to the specific results that the company prioritized?

Christina:
Yeah. It’s, um, it’s, that’s an, a very common problem and it’s not in the first edition. And one of the reasons the second edition is so important, but when you have a larger company, you have different types of efforts. Um, and I love the old Boston consulting group, matrix of stars, question marks, dogs, and cat cows. I don’t know if you know that one. So if your market is growing, like a bunch of people are starting to hit, um, you know, old age boomers are getting older, so that’s a market that’s growing, right. And then you have how much your in that market, like how many of these older boomers are you reaching? Right. Um, and so then you can go ahead and say, well, if the market’s not growing, but we have a really good market share, we can just melt that. That’s kind of a cow, right?

Christina:
If, uh, if the market’s growing and the market share is going, it’s a star you want to double down, you want to put some okay on that. You want to find out where the ceiling is on that one. Right. Um, then you have this growing market and you have nothing in it. Well, that’s a question mark. And that’s where you can put in a sort of an exploratory OKR. You can pull out a small group of people to explore this market and figure out if there’s a, there, there, uh, and then the thing about both cash, cows, and dogs is you need just straight up KPIs. You just need to measure because there’s going to be a point where you need to put that dog to sleep. I’m sorry to say, my dog is actually literally asleep and snoring, like crazy

Chris:
Dogs and all this thing,

Christina:
You know, the dog, we can talk about the dogs that way. So once you start seeing this sort of exploit, um, expand exit four square, and I wish I could give you a picture. I could probably mail it and you can put in the show notes if you want. Um, that’s great. Then you can really think about, um, okay, we need this group to have classical KRS, but you know what? Uh, the design group is only four people. They, they don’t have any extra time. All the stuff they do is working for the company. They should not have their own. Okay. Ours. And then we have people that are either even farther away from that core effort, such as let’s take legal. Legal is always one of my favorites. Okay. So they see the company’s okay. Ours and they never, they’re never part of the company’s goals.

Christina:
They’re just there to keep us safe, keep us from being sued. So most of the time they should have, uh, health metrics and health metrics are just, you know, uh, that level of customer satisfaction, perhaps, uh, you know, percentage of cases, one, whatever you want to measure. And you just want to see if it goes down or if you think it could go up. So maybe that legal team everybody’s resenting them because you’re like, man, you always right on my parade. I got this cool thing I want to launch. And you’re like, you’re saying is going to Sue us. So maybe the legal team says, well, we have to help people understand why this is dangerous, but not, not make their decisions for them. So we’re going to work on customer support. Let’s do OKR is just this quarter to really nail customer support to build that muscle. And then they might go back to business as usual KPIs once they’re gone because they don’t need to grow it.

Chris:
Okay. So your business as usual activity is, or support departments or administrative functions may just have health metrics or some kind of KPI that shows if they’re doing the job as well as it should be done. Right. But then the OKR is, would be particularly used for departments that you’re trying to affect a change.

Christina:
Absolutely. They’re all about pushing and growing. And, uh, and, and, you know, the thing is with the pandemic, I keep thinking about this a lot because it changed for zoom. Heck, all of a sudden they were being turbocharged. And for other people, of course, suddenly their market disappeared. Like restaurants. It’s been heartbreaking. And that’s the place where it helps a lot. If you have, um, if you remember your strategy, so where the restaurants, you can be complacent and serve people who’ve come inside, or you could be thinking about things like say Thomas Keller’s little bread, fat, you know, a business that’s been going really well. And I don’t think anybody’s eating at the French laundry right now, but they are buying the bread at the farmer’s market. And there’s something to keep the company going. So as you start developing, um, a portfolio of your products, you’re balancing out what’s appropriate now, but you’re, you’re setting aside a little bit for strategy because you never know, you never know.

Chris:
Okay. So, so with the restaurant example, a good objective might be to launch a delivery service or something that didn’t exist before. And a key result might be the percentage of revenue derived from that service. Is that, am I thinking about that? Right.

Christina:
You are still thinking about it, right. And after that, it’s only, um, it’s only wordsmithing, like you might say, um, deepen our fabulous relationship with our customers by providing a delivery service or, um, you know, make the wonderful experience of bar bread, be an everyday experience. You know, something like that, just something to get your juices flowing. And then its revenue, right? It’s an acquisition, it’s a conversion. Those are my three favorite metrics. I feel like there’s a Holy Trinity, right? Acquisition, conversion, and revenue. And, uh, those make really good, um, key results. And you know, what you can put in another key result, which is about customer satisfaction so that when people are going crazy after revenue, they’re not cheating or doing bad things to customers, you know, let your key results balance each other a little bit.

Chris:
So they won’t sacrifice one area to meet the goal on the other side. So it’s so interesting how important wordsmithing is. So thank you for calling that out a couple of times. Um, as we start to wrap up here, I want to touch back on the accountability elements. So as you Institute these and you roll through, KRS out for departments or teams or the company, how do you make sure that it’s ingrained in the daily or weekly schedule? How often do you check-in and report on these and do you report on all of them or only the ones that are injured?

Christina:
So, um, basically it depends on, you know, the group and the group size, but you have this old Monday meeting where you’re saying, um, here’s my confidence about the OKR and it’s dropped, or it’s staying the same. If it’s staying the same, you don’t need to talk about it, but if it’s dropped and you know, everybody should be brainstorming, what are we going to do? And if it’s growing like crazy yay team, um, you look at the health metrics and you say, okay, is, are we in a steady-state? And if it’s, uh, you can call a code red and stop working on OKR is if one of your health metrics has gone downhill. So let’s say you’re used to having, um, you know, a DAU of 150,001 days at 60,000. And you’re like, what? You might call a code red until you figure out what happened.

Christina:
Is, was it the customers? Is it a bug, did something crash. Um, and the and then you have these lists of code reds, which then when you’re at the end of the quarter, and you’re saying, why didn’t we make our, we can say things like, well, our code is made of limps spaghetti, and maybe we should make the change at right. Um, and then everybody says, here are the top three things. Don’t list everything. Just the top three things I’m doing towards my old cars. And they can say, Oh, well, why are you doing that? That we did that last year. And it didn’t work. So, um, it’s really about having a conversation about how are we working together to meet the goals that we want.

Chris:
Got it. Okay, great. So the last question, I’m curious, you know, as, individuals and teams are working towards their OKR, is, is that related to performance reviews? Do you think about reviewing someone’s performance as to whether or not they achieve the OKR?

Christina:
Um, no, because what happens is the moment you connect performance review and money, and people’s wellbeing with, uh, with performance, they’re going to start sandbagging. They’re no longer set bold goals. I mean, and that’s right. You know, this is, this is money that puts food on the table, right. So instead of what you want to do. And, um, I have a model for the team that manages itself. So the second book I wrote after radical focus, where it talks about the fact that we need to look at contributions towards OKR, if appropriate, right? Like legal is not contributing to the OKR, sorry, legal. Um, so the contribution to the OKR could be an element, um, not whether or not you made them because making them means you’re sandbagging. So it’s just like, what awesome things did you do? You know, we headed for the moon and maybe we didn’t make it, but now we have Velcro in Tang.

Christina:
Awesome. Some good came out of that. Um, and the other piece is how are they inhabiting their role? And you know, what it means to do a job. You’ve got, you know, growing your people, a certain amount of hiring all that stuff. So you’re looking at contributions. So the OKR, are you fulfilling your role? Are you growing? I strongly recommend this one. Are you growing in your knowledge, are you growing in your skills, putting aside time for that investing in your employees? Um, and then some companies who are using this, uh, I call it the role park, uh, the role canvas, sorry. Um, and so when you’re hiring someone, you write this out. Here’s what I hope they’ll accomplish. Here’s what I, um, need them to do in their everyday life. Here are the skills I think they need to have to be good at this job.

Christina:
And then what you do is, uh, you use it in one of your one-on-one, you know, you look at their weekly review and you look at your role profile and it might change. You know, they, there may have been, uh, uh, something that you thought you really needed from them, but you didn’t. And then at the end of the quarter, you have, you know, um, all these notes about your person and you can flip through them quickly and put it together and say, you’re awesome. Or step it up, you know, depending on what you need. And it becomes a living document because when that person gets promoted or quits or whatnot, you still have this list of what that job actually was. And you don’t have to do that thing where you’re like hopping around on job sites, stealing, uh, write-ups of jobs. You’re not even sure what you’re doing. You have something that is real and really works

Chris:
Well. Everyone that’s listening knows how passionate I am about that. And keeping job descriptions aligned and training, and that’s everything that we’re all about. So tons of resources on our site about that. Now, last thing here, performance-related, I saw in another interview, you talked about feedback coming, not just from the manager, but from teammates as well. Do you want to touch on that? Oh yeah.

Christina:
So this is sort of the most advanced thing that you can do, but often, um, getting a team that manages itself really means that they manage each other, they support each other, they grow each other. And so, uh, retrospectives are a really good baby step. I think if you do one thing, do a weekly retro and say, what went well and what didn’t go well. So that’s the beginning of starting this learning cycle. Then we start going to more formal things, which is at the end of the quarter, we’re going to evaluate, are we living up to who we think we should be? So just like with the roles and just like with the goals, the OKR is the role profile. You set up a team, um, rules of engagement. Uh, I call them norms, but rules of engagement seem to work. And this is where the team says, this is how are we are going to interact with each other.

Christina:
Right. And so, uh, at the end of the quarter, you know, you can take all these things like, um, Oh, what’s the classic one. Um, don’t yuck. My yum. A lot of my students are saying that one, which is, you know, Hey, just because I really, really, really love, uh, Helvetica doesn’t mean that you’re like, Oh, it’s so old, everybody’s using it. Of course, you do. Your designer, you know, are we are not yucking each other’s jobs and people can say green, we’re totally being respectful of each other’s passions or red. You know, this, this guy is like, you know, we’re an AZ, but you’re still talking the team language because that’s easier. It’s easier to say, uh, something’s wrong with us than it is to say, there’s something wrong with me. And then the final level after you’ve built this up and you’re having Ripley’s is you can give each other feedback.

Christina:
And I built a canvas for that. I obviously have a design and information design background. And so I’m very interested in how can we visualize business concepts. Um, and for that one, you basically first to build a little empathy, write down what you know about this person. Like, do they have a sister? They live in Cincinnati, you know, a little bits and pieces. Okay, now you’re warm-up. Now you can say, um, here’s something you should start doing. Here’s something you should continue doing. Here’s something you can stop doing. Or you can say strengths and weaknesses. But, um, that little warmup of remembering that people are human, um, is really critical. And the way I like to do it is actually on the, and everybody gets two minutes to fill out this, uh, canvas and you move to the next person, the next person, by the time you get back to yours, you’ve gotten like six people’s post-it notes up there telling you what you’re great at and where you should grow. And I’ve seen people like cry because they feel seen, it’s just, it’s very emotional. And that’s why I say, it’s something you, you build up to, you got to keep building the psychological trust. You can’t just drop this on people because they’ll lose their. Oh, I’m sorry. I shouldn’t.

Chris:
So it sounds like you’re, you’ve continued to develop these canvases and models and ways of thinking you mentioned earlier, you’re working on the second version of your book. Any, any timeline on that?

Christina:
Yes. I decided that um, well, first of all, finally, I’ve gotten time to start working on it again. Now the classes are done at Stanford. And so, um, I want to release it on the anniversary of the first edition, which is, um, February 7th, I think. Um, I just think that would be Nesby. Um, so that’s what I’m looking at. So second edition of radical focus. Um, yeah. And if people want to learn more about the goals, roles, norms, empowered team approach, that’s in a team that manages itself. Lots of good stuff out there. I’m gosh, I feel proud. Sometimes you just, you’re so busy. You forget to stop and go. Oh wow. I did a couple of things. Didn’t I

Chris:
Amazing. Well, I’m going to have to relisten to this whole episode because there are so many gems in here that I want to incorporate for our team. So Christine, I know we could talk for hours about this sort of stuff, and it’s impossible to squeeze all of your books and all of your blog posts and all of your Stanford lectures into a half-hour interview. But we did the best that we could. So I want to thank you for coming on here and sharing some wisdom.

Christina:
Oh, it was absolutely a pleasure. Now I’m going to spend the rest of the afternoon, all energized and ready to work on the second edition.

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