Chris Ronzio (02:07):

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Organize Chaos. I'm your host, Chris Ronzio. Today our special guest is Adam Posner. What's up, Adam?

Adam Posner (02:15):

Chris, thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here.

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Landing His Dream Job At VaynerMedia

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Chris Ronzio (02:18):

Thanks for having us before your weekend and spending your Friday afternoon with us. I was reading through your story and you've got a pretty cool unique journey that took you through a background in marketing and advertising, to your dream job, which we can talk more about. Into NHP talent group, where you are today and that is all about recruiting.

Chris Ronzio (02:41):

Especially, in this difficult talent market, there's so much we can talk about with recruiting, but we've got to start from the beginning. Where should we start? Advertising agency jobs?

Adam Posner (02:54):

It's quite the journey. I'm a Swiss army knife, but I'll give your audience the long story as we like to say here. Born and raised New Yorker something. I definitely take a lot of pride in. 15 years, I always knew I wanted to get into marketing and advertising since high school and college, and all that.

Adam Posner (03:08):

I did just add 15 years working in New York City Adland at different agencies, Brand-Side American Express, Sirius XM. Then, I found myself over at VaynerMedia, 2014 working for the great Gary V., which I thought was my forever job.

Chris Ronzio (03:23):

You must have been following him for a long time. How long did you want to work there before you ended up there?

Adam Posner (03:30):

Well, it's interesting. If you hit the rewind button, that's 2014. I actually started talking to the folks over there at the end of 2013, they didn't have any openings, 2014 came around. I went through the interview process. I knew a couple of people that worked there.

Adam Posner (03:45):

I think early October, I got the news that they were ready to make a hire. I started right before Thanksgiving.

Chris Ronzio (03:54):

Back then, they weren't at the Hudson Yards or wherever it is now, right?

Adam Posner (03:58):

No, they were they over at Park Avenue and that was before Gary was a household name. The folks in the industry, listen, if you're in social media and you knew anything about anything, you knew who Gary was and you knew the impact that it was really starting to have and make ripples in the marketplace.

Chris Ronzio (04:12):

You got there and how was it?

Adam Posner (04:14):

It was interesting too, because you have this vision sometimes like when you start a new job and you're excited about it and you really think it's going to be your forever job. You really think the grass is going to be greener on the other side. Unfortunately, Chris, for me, that was just not the case. A lot of it was responsibility on my side.

Adam Posner (04:31):

I think looking back on it, it's safe to say that VaynerMedia had a responsibility as well. They were a young organization at the time. They weren't fully-formed. They had their flaws, I had my flaws and it just wasn't the right chemistry. It just did not work out. I was certainly not the person that I am now. I think it's safe to say I didn't handle some interpersonal relationships well.

Adam Posner (04:51):

I didn't handle some things with some clients well. Ultimately, brutal honesty, I didn't do what they hired me to do, and it turned out to be a great wake up call for me. Listen, not to be said I did a lot of good stuff. I did a lot of great projects, but at the end of the day, it just was not the right role and ultimately, I lost my job.

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Owning Your Losses

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Chris Ronzio (05:08):

I read your LinkedIn article about owning your L or it was for losses. What does that mean to you?

Adam Posner (05:15):

Listen, it comes down to accountability. I think it's safe to say prior to me losing my job at Vayner, I never really looked in the mirror and said, "What am I good at? What do I keep screwing up? Why am I making mistakes? Am I doing something that I don't love?" It really took that moment when I was at my lowest to have to look in the mirror.

Adam Posner (05:36):

I always say this too, there's no greater foundation than bottom than rock bottom. I need to hit rock bottom to really look in the mirror and say, "What am I doing? Do I want to be doing this? Do I want to continue to do this for the rest of my career?" Honestly, the answer is no. The way this story goes and I've told it a bunch, but on that day that I got let go, Gary and I have a good relationship.

Adam Posner (05:56):

We have a great relationship. He spent about an hour with me and he said, "Stop focusing on the things that you suck at and double down on your strengths." I let that sink in for a minute. I thought he was just pat me on the back and saying, "Go get it. Good luck, buddy. Get out there." Then we dug into it and we unpacked it.

Adam Posner (06:15):

We spoke about what I'm great at and some of the things I'm not so good at. Back then I was 35 at the time. He was like, "Are you going to spend the rest of your life trying to fix things that you're not so great at and you don't enjoy it? Do you really want to spend that and focus and double down on your strength?" That's exactly what I did.

Adam Posner (06:29):

All signs pointed me towards recruiting. All signs were pointing me in the right direction. That was scary man, to say sh*, at 35 years old, am I going to start a new job, a new career. I'm going to start at ground zero, and that was hard. That was a really tough pill to swallow. That was a tough point in my life for a few months.

Chris Ronzio (06:46):

When you talk about just doubling down on your strengths, ignoring your weaknesses, it reminds me of this test I did a while back the Kolbe test. Have you done that? K-O-L-B-E.

Adam Posner (06:56):

No, I'm not. I'll be honest about it I hate personality tests. I hate strengths finders. I know a lot of people find value in them, but that's just not my thing, man. [inaudible 00:07:06] It helps a lot of people because it gives them those signs and indicators that they're looking for.

Chris Ronzio (07:13):

Maybe one of those things, if you don't have the self-awareness or the confidence to focus on the things that you are good at and ignore your weaknesses like Gary told you, that's what I got out of those tests. You're naturally not good at these things.

Chris Ronzio (07:26):

It gave me a tool that I could share with some of my coworkers to say, "These are the areas where I really just shouldn't be spending my time. It's stressful to me. It feels like a burden." I don't like it and was able to move on.

Adam Posner (07:38):

What's interesting though, too, we talk about accountability. I think for me, the big thing, Chris has had opened up vulnerability that I was able to start to talk about these things. That I didn't like put up this protective shell, this facade. That really helped me bring out my true self and my true personality.

Adam Posner (07:54):

Once I got into recruiting, once I got some wins under my belt, I took plenty of punches to the face in recruiting. Anyway, I was in recruiting they know exactly what I'm talking about. It really wasn't until I went out and launched my own business, NHP Talent Group here, that all that confidence came to light.

Adam Posner (08:10):

It wouldn't have happened until unless I hit my lowest and that opened up the real vulnerability and accountability vortex, which helped everything.

Chris Ronzio (08:17):

Before we pivot into the recruiting and leave this the Vayner world behind, I'm curious no boss wants to let an employee go. It's a tough thing for everyone. No one wants to go through that. It sounds like it was a good turning point for you, a good experience that opened your eyes to some things.

Chris Ronzio (08:32):

When you think back on that exit, are there things you would recommend to people if they have to let someone go. How should they handle that to be the most useful for the person?

Adam Posner (08:42):

That's a great question. I really haven't talked about that. Thanks for bringing that up. As an employer, it is definitely the hardest thing you have to do. Some people are cold-blooded and they could do it, but at the end of the day, we're in the people business and it's hard. This is someone's livelihood.

Adam Posner (08:57):

This is their future. I've had to let people go too and it's terrible. I've been fired and let go multiple times in my career in good ways and bad ways. Let's be honest about this Chris, if it's performance related and you get let go for performance related and you had no clue, it's coming either something greatly wrong with you or something's greatly wrong with the company.

Adam Posner (09:19):

You know if you're not doing well and if a company's doing the right thing, they're trying to coach you along the way, they're giving you performance reviews. They're having those conversations. I had those conversations at Vayner. It wasn't a shock to me. I thought they were going to maybe transition me to another role. I express interest in other areas of the business, but it really comes with no surprise.

Adam Posner (09:38):

When that time comes handle with care. Handle with the care, but at the same time, it's also a business. You want to do your best to make sure that they have a soft landing. It is a company's responsibility to make sure that somebody has a soft landing. We're not going to handhold them through until their next job, but we want to give them a soft landing.

Adam Posner (09:58):

We want to give them the tools. We want to give them the opportunity to talk about in an exit interview and take that information to heart, and utilize it for positive feedback in the future for the company. Vayner did it well. They treated me with class.

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The Art & Science Of Recruiting

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Chris Ronzio (10:13):

Well, thank you for sharing that. On recruiting, did you know you were great at recruiting? This is a big pivot you're in your mid 30s, you take this new job, new career, not a ton of experience. Why recruiting?

Adam Posner (10:30):

It was a very logical transition from what I was doing because I went into recruiting for marketing media and advertising. I already had the category expertise. Dude, I was recruiting for jobs that I've had, jobs that I work with. Everyone that I work with. I had the network, I had the Rolodex, I had all the context there, but what I had to learn, Chris was the art and science of recruiting.

Adam Posner (10:51):

Now, the science of recruiting that took work. You have to understand how to recruit. How to be a recruiter? It's one of those things, man, everyone's like, "I'm just going to go into real estate. I'm going to be a real estate agent." Everyone thinks that maybe they've bought a house or two and maybe they've done some home renovations.

Adam Posner (11:06):

Now, they're a fricking expert in real estate, but they don't know shit. They don't know about the process, the legal, the mortgages, the tax implications, the entire process of what it takes to actually buy and sell a home. Forget it, that's what you need to learn. Me going into recruiting, it was the same thing where I had to learn that.

Adam Posner (11:22):

Now, the art of it that comes with experience, but there's also a bit of finesse that comes into recruiting because ultimately, the number one thing in recruiting for a recruiter is you have to understand the candidate's motivation. Why is Chris looking for a new job? Is Chris looking for a new job because he's not happy where he is?

Adam Posner (11:37):

He's undervalued. He's looking for a pivot, a career change? He's not making enough money. They're looking to make a move out of state, all these reasons, because that's your leverage. That's something I inherently knew how to ask because I'm a conversationalist and I'm naturally inquisitive. I want to know about people and situations.

Adam Posner (11:55):

When I got on the phone with candidates, that came naturally, because I also went back to my past and thought about all those times where I wanted to leave jobs. Once you have that motivator, that's your leverage as a recruiter. I'm not using leverage in a negative way I'm using that as a motivator. Why does Chris want to leave his job?

Adam Posner (12:10):

Every point of the process through our conversation we're touching base on that. "Chris, in your current role, you're not getting X, Y, Z, the more conversations you're having with the team, are you seeing those opportunities for X, Y, and Z? Do you feel confident that this role is going to give you X, Y, and Z?" Those are the things you need to know as a recruiter. That takes time and experience.

Chris Ronzio (12:28):

I know this isn't rocket science, but I'd love for you to share just some of the top motivations that you hear from people. I think sometimes we know these things as business owners, we know what people need to be happy, but if we're not asking them, we can lose sight of these simple things. What are the main motivators for people wanting to switch jobs?

Adam Posner (12:46):

Well, it's interesting because it's not always rocket science. I think one of the core motivators is a clear career path. Sometimes that career path is not defined in an organization. Maybe there's someone ahead of you say you're in a smaller organization and you're director level and there's a VP in front of you, and that VP here, or she is not leaving for a long time.

Adam Posner (13:06):

Your roadblock, that happens. Money is obviously a motivator. I mean, we're seeing it now in this market and I know you wanted to talk about it a little later on, but it's a great point to talk about it. Right now, is an insane, it's not a natural candidate market because it happened due to the pandemic. It's not a natural progression of the economy and everything.

Adam Posner (13:26):

If you're looking at it in a macro level, nothing's organic like that, everything's organic, but you can't fall candidates right now for playing the salary arbitrage game. If you have an opportunity to make a significant jump forward in your compensation, why wouldn't you take it right now? Why wouldn't you? I don't fall candidates for that.

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The Great Recalibration

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Adam Posner (13:45):

The problem is a lot of companies are desperate and they're hiring people at a higher level entitled than they are inexperienced. What's going to happen, my prediction is going to be after the Great Migration, I don't call it the Great Resignation, I call it the great migration, because people are moving in changing jobs, but what's going to happen is a great recalibration.

Adam Posner (14:03):

Here's where the rubber hits the road, I'll give you an example of this if you don't mind. Companies looking to hire director of marketing and the market is dictating that current qualified candidates are just way above their compensation level. They take a step down and they hire manager or senior manager for that director role, and that candidate who's just not ready yet.

Adam Posner (14:24):

They're like, "Chris is showing great aptitude. He has a great attitude, He's a go-getter." Next thing you know, Chris is in the role, six months, rubber hits the road and, "You're not performing. You're not up to that level." They're putting you up against the clients who are senior level marketers, 20 years experience and you just can't. It's not a good match."

Adam Posner (14:42):

Now, the great recalibration comes and they're like, "Sh*, Chris isn't right for this role." What are they going to have to do? They're going to have to let you go. They're going to have to go back to the well. Now, the entire cycle starts again. Now, it's great for us recruiters are being compensated on that. That's good for my business, but it's not good for your business and this is happening.

Chris Ronzio (15:00):

This is the first time I've heard the Great Recalibration it makes so much sense because I do see people taking titles that feel like a progression for them. It's a big salary jump. They're excited about it. It's a new challenge, new opportunity. They don't have the experience, just like you said.

Chris Ronzio (15:14):

Then they get into that job for three months, six months and they realize that they're not knocking it out of the park. They're not performing like they did at their old title or in their old role, or in their old culture and they're struggling. If those people are struggling, then do you think that they just stick it out until they have the experience? Do you think they do an employee down round and take [inaudible 00:15:36]

Adam Posner (15:36):

That never happens.

Chris Ronzio (15:38):

What happens when people are in that zone where they feel like they've earned this position, but they don't have the experience?

Adam Posner (15:44):

That's another thing too, that we're seeing. Let's say now, you've gotten this high title and you get let go, A, how you going to explain yourself and you get back on the interview track and B are you qualify for that position? You are seeing some people here and there it's a tough one. Now, these people are in this career purgatory.

Adam Posner (16:01):

They've gotten themselves up to a certain compensation level on a certain title level and they don't want to take a step back, but they might have to. These are all the things we're seeing two years after the pandemic. Let's talk about this, who is the pandemic really hurting right now? It's newer and younger employees to an organization.

Adam Posner (16:16):

Companies that went 100% remote, and listen I'm in the hybrid camp. I think that a company really needs to in this day and age, trust, options, and choice. Those are the three things, trust, options, and choice. Trust your employee that you hired to get their work done anywhere and anywhere. Have an option if they want to come into a physical office and give them the choice to do whatever they want that works for them.

Adam Posner (16:40):

That's we're seeing right now. It's really not rocket science. There's obviously nuances in context. If you're an iron worker, you need to be at the iron plant. You know what I mean? There's certain context, there's certain jobs need to be in a physical office, we get that. We're also seeing, despite all the buzz on LinkedIn, there's a lot of people that actually want to have an office. It's their escape.

Adam Posner (17:03):

It's their escape from their home because there's too many distractions at home. You and I both have kids. I can't even tell you how many times that I decide to work from home and not my office, and I regret it because my four-year-old is kicking the door down when I'm on a call. Sometimes I actually have to get out and have this quiet space where I could focus where I could do my work.

Adam Posner (17:22):

How about this? How about the single parents that are stuck in a small one-bedroom apartment in an inner city with multiple kids, with crappy WiFi? They can't do their job there. Their job is online. They go to the office because that's where they work. That's their escape. People aren't talking about it because it's not sexy.

Chris Ronzio (17:43):

I think the office definitely still has a place. Like you said, it's an option. It's there for the people that need it. It's there for the people that want it. There's certain roles that just require it if you want to get stuff done you're more productive in an office and it's not for everybody.

Chris Ronzio (17:57):

I think the optionality is important. Also, people have to understand what environment they want to work in because they have a lot of choices right now to pick companies that have those types of amenities or don't.

Adam Posner (18:08):

Let's talk about the news on Brian Chesky, the foundered CEO of Airbnb. He tweeted yesterday that Airbnb is going 100% remote. First of all, that makes sense from a brand perspective that's not rocket science. He's been doing it for the last couple of years, but if you actually follow the thread, two or three posts down, he talks about the importance of onsite and collaboration.

Adam Posner (18:32):

He's saying we're 100% remote, but he is also saying the teams are going to get together quarterly. The offices are open if you want it. This is somebody that actually understands and believes in the value of in-person collaboration. There's plenty of companies that have proven it out successfully of 100% remote there's no right, there's no wrong here.

Adam Posner (18:47):

That's why it's such a gray area, but you cannot not, you have to listen to your employees. That's a big takeaway here. If you don't listen to them and give them a choice in an option, you're going to lose them. Those are the old school companies that are losing right now. Attrition's through the roof.

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How To Attract Employees, Today!

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Chris Ronzio (19:06):

For a brand that's a company that's listening that wants to attract people, that wants people putting in applications, that wants to be an attractive brand what do you think are the hallmarks of an attractive brand right now?

Adam Posner (19:18):

Empowering your employees to be your best talent acquisition advocates. Giving your employees free range to say whatever the heck they want on LinkedIn about your company, because you trust them because it's a good vibe, and it's a good thing going on there. When they see it, it's the best product review out there.

Adam Posner (19:39):

Think about it, if you have your employees talking about positively about your company, your product, your services, who wouldn't want to work there? I've seen it work it literally is the easiest and best technique for talent acquisition.

Chris Ronzio (19:55):

Pros and cons of having your employees be your recruiters, bringing in all their friends.

Adam Posner (20:02):

It's not just a nepotism game there too, and it's not about bringing in their friends, but if they have an audience on LinkedIn or other platforms that they're building up and talking about, it's brand awareness. It really is the best candidate marketing out there by far. The other piece companies could do is how do they position themselves as thought leaders within the company.

Adam Posner (20:22):

How do you feature people within the organization? We're not talking about top execs. Let's just say, you're a performance marketing agency and you have a junior marketer in your company going on LinkedIn on a company made video talking about, "Maybe there's a new technology out there. Maybe there's a new best practice out there."

Adam Posner (20:39):

That's awesome. You're not just putting the senior level talking heads out there, that makes a big difference, and that works.

Chris Ronzio (20:45):

People want to work for and with people that they like, I think. When you get to see other people and you get exposed to other people, it makes you be like, "I want to be in that place." It's not necessarily the company that they want to work for. Sometimes that helps, but often it's the people.

Chris Ronzio (21:00):

It's the people they see posting the conversations they see happening. The photos, do the people look happy? Do I want to be around those people?

Adam Posner (21:08):

It's also the trust factor too. If I see somebody freely talking about their company and genuinely happy about it, and it's not like they're putting an affiliate link where they're getting a referral bonus for hiring, but when they're talking about their company, there's nothing greater than that. It's organic, it's genuine.

Chris Ronzio (21:22):

What do you think brands or companies small businesses can do to foster that? A lot of my direct reports, which are on the leadership team want to be thought leaders and they want to be out there speaking and sharing things, but for the entire company, how do you encourage that or really foster that?

Adam Posner (21:38):

A great underutilized way is a company podcast. I'm working, I'm consulting with a couple of companies right now on how do you create a company podcast, which is great because you feature internal employees, you highlight clients. That's another great way to deepen relationship with clients.

Adam Posner (21:53):

Then you have a treasure trove of content to cut clips from and put out there. Have your employees share it, feature employees do employee. There's a million things you could do with the power of a podcast internally.

Chris Ronzio (22:04):

I love that. Just a podcast that interviews all your employees about what it's like to work in your business like an internal podcast?

Adam Posner (22:09):

Not even just that. I mean, you're interviewing them on current events and thought leadership and it can be a quick thing. It can be a weekly 15-minute, just a quick snippet, "This week we're featuring Chris, he's a senior account manager. Chris, we're going to talk about what's happening in the world today of current events."

Adam Posner (22:25):

He'd be like, "Listen, Google just announced this new platform. Here's the pros and cons about it. Here's what else we're seeing. Also, we just did a great case study with one of our clients that did X, Y, and Z." 15 minutes digestible, weekly, easy to produce.

Chris Ronzio (22:38):

That's cool.

Adam Posner (22:39):

Low cost.

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How SMBs Should Structure Their Recruiting And Hiring Process

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Chris Ronzio (22:40):

I like that. When it comes to recruiting, this is a function that some businesses as they grow have in-house. Some businesses will hire firms like yours to help them with this. Some businesses just aren't good at this at all and put zero attention into it. If people are just getting started with the hiring game and they've exhausted their close friends, and they're starting to try to find talent, how would you advise them to get started?

Adam Posner (23:06):

It has to start at the top. If the executives are not making hiring and people first, then it's not going to trickle down. Hiring has to have a seat at the table. Hiring has to have a seat in budget conversations. It has to be a priority because here's what's going to happen when it's not a priority it's going to trickle on down. People are going to leave the organization. Attrition's going to happen.

Adam Posner (23:26):

When you have folks that are stuck covering two or three other people's roles, guess what? They're out the door and it's a vicious cycle and we've seen it all. Number one, first and foremost, companies have to put hiring at the top. If you're able to budget and have a hiring team, and we're not just talking about ahead of people, because ahead of people may not want to get their hands dirty at a certain level.

Adam Posner (23:42):

You need actual hands-on recruiters and if you can't afford that, you do have an internal hiring person who's going to be your inside quarterback. Who's going to be managing that process and then finding a talent partner. Whether there's somebody like myself, where we are true consultants versus a lot where people think about recruiters out there that are fee-based and throwing resumes on the wall.

Adam Posner (24:01):

Someone who could really be your outsource partner or you find other ways. You're working with job boards, you're working with other talent resources out there, but you need to find what works for you and test and learn.

Chris Ronzio (24:11):

It's trial and error I think. You've got to have someone inside that's quarterback. I think that's an important point here.

Adam Posner (24:18):

You don't want your CEO fricking organizing interviews.

Chris Ronzio (24:24):

When we first started, it was me doing the interviews for the first few people, but then I brought on someone, she was an assistant, an operations manager and our chief of staff, and she just quarterbacked everything. All the people that we need to meet. How long do you think the founder, the CEO should be involved in the interview process?

Adam Posner (24:43):

That's a pretty broad question that really depends obviously on the size of the organization. I'm a true believer in, from a leadership perspective in outsourcing. I think that it's critical that especially in the early days of an organization, when it's a handful of people that the CEO, the founder, the president, is making that key hiring decision, especially for key leadership roles.

Adam Posner (25:05):

There has to be a point where you're delegating. By the time a candidate gets to you, it's more of a sign off because you trust your team. I know that Chris, Bob, and Jane met with this candidate, they all give their seal of approval. By the time that candidate gets to me, I'm going to have a couple of questions.

Adam Posner (25:19):

I'm not really digging into their skillset, but I really want to see about their character and their values to see if that's going to mesh well in our organization.

Chris Ronzio (25:26):

When you're working with a client of yours, how do you get to the heart of their brand, their culture, to really understand who they are before you can find someone that's going to fit in?

Adam Posner (25:37):

That's a tough one and it's taken me a long time to figure that out. It's funny I find a lot of value in actually the interview process because I'm an outsider. I'm not inside the company. I can't always speak to their culture. Culture such as silly buzzword these days. What does culture even mean?

Adam Posner (25:53):

Prior to the pandemic culture was like, "We all get together Thursday nights. We go into the break room and we have a keg and beer pong. We go down to the local bar and we hang out. We play foosball." That's not culture. Especially in this world, how do you even define culture when everyone's on Zoom all day?

Adam Posner (26:10):

Culture really is defined as, in my opinion, do you feel valued in your job? Do you have a clear career path and are you genuinely happy? Do you feel like you have a purpose in your job? If those boxes are checked and then that's what it really is all about in this day and age. That definition of culture is changing every single day. How do you put your needle on it?

Adam Posner (26:30):

For me is an outsider, I just want to finish that thought how a company handles and manages the interview process? How responsive they are to my emails? How responsive they are to scheduling candidates, giving feedback, making decisions, making strong offers, that's culture. That's indicative of culture, because that means they're putting people first. Let's call it what it is, man.

Chris Ronzio (26:50):

I was going to say the exact same thing I literally wrote down it's how you make decisions and how you act on feedback. Your behaviors are your culture. It's what you do in certain situations are what really defines your culture. I love that you said that. Recruiting in a way is a little bit like matchmaking.

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Look For These Qualities In Candidates

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Chris Ronzio (27:08):

You're trying to get to know the company. You're trying to get to know the candidate. Are there special questions you ask a candidate as you're trying to figure out what they're all about?

Adam Posner (27:17):

I ask their sign, no I don't. It's interesting too, because I've evolved my interview a bit and I feel like I have a spy sense at times, but I also know very well that I have biases. I also know that some people are really good at interviewing and some people are not. I give a lot of leeway if someone's nervous, but I could also tell the difference of being underprepared and uninterested versus nervous.

Adam Posner (27:40):

There's human behaviors that you need to understand underprepared and uninterested are red flags for me. I don't like those at all. As far as go-to questions I like to ask people tell me who you are and what you do best. Tell me who you are and what you do best. What do you do? I want to know how and what you did. I want to dig into it. How did you do that?

Adam Posner (28:05):

What was your contribution depending on the role and the level? I want quantifiable results, but I really also want to know your motivator. Going back to what we spoke about earlier though, what you're looking for. I want to hear your story and the ability to tell a good story for most of the roles.

Adam Posner (28:22):

A lot of roles, technical roles who gives a shit what story you're telling, or if you could tell a story that doesn't matter, because you're doing a technical development role, but if I'm working in marketing communications, you better be able to tell a story articulately.

Chris Ronzio (28:36):

Let me go back to something else you said earlier. You were talking about as you're interviewing people, as you're taking them through this process, the process really shows what the company culture's all about. Do you recommend doing test work for the person, a test project? How do you feel about that?

Adam Posner (28:57):

This is iffy. This is a touchy subject here. Once it shifted to the pandemic and it became more of a candidate driven market, the leverage pendulum switched over to candidates where people are like, "I ain't doing. What do you want me to do? You want me to do a written test? You want me to do a project for you and give you my time?"

Adam Posner (29:13):

That's a tough one too, because as I said before, some people are really good at interviewing, but when the rubber hits the road they can't step up to the plate. That's why small assignments aren't the worst thing in the world to ask. As long as you're being mindful of someone's time and giving them enough time to do it.

Adam Posner (29:31):

That assignment can't be related to current, it has to be a hypothetical. My God, if a company asks somebody to do real work and doesn't offer to pay them, I will never do that with a client.

Chris Ronzio (29:43):

You can offer to pay them right as a little consulting project and see how it works?

Adam Posner (29:48):

Yeah. I've even advised clients too, for even hypothetical projects to offer an AMEX gift card. I say it up front, I'm like, "Once you hand this project in just as a little token we're going to give you $200 AMEX gift card." Just to say we value your time. We know this is a hypothetical. It's just a small token instead of obviously invoicing them and cutting them in. Make it easy.

Chris Ronzio (30:11):

I think that's a great suggestion. So many awesome tips here. I mean about your story and how you ended up in recruiting. Then I think how small businesses should think about their culture, their hiring process, attracting the right candidates and taking care and listening to their people.

Chris Ronzio (30:28):

As we wrap this up, the last thing I'm curious about is recruiting itself is a pretty competitive saturated market. Tell us a little bit about NHP and how you've stood out or how you've attracted candidates or clients.

Adam Posner (30:43):

Well, it's two things. First and foremost, everyone says what's different about your recruiting agency it's really cliche, but it's me and the folks that work for me. We are all executive search level recruiters who apply executive search level techniques, but we operate on an hourly basis. We operate with a management consultancy model.

Adam Posner (31:01):

It's a different approach where ultimately we want to be valued and viewed as a partner and not a vendor. If the clients are on board with that, those are our best clients. If you treat us like a vendor, A that's not the relationship we want to deal with, and B, you're not going to get the results that you want. I have to be very clear about that.

Adam Posner (31:18):

The other way I stand out is what we're doing right now is the podcast. I created The Pozcast as a way for me to express myself, to connect with my network. After 200 plus episodes and half a million downloads, it's become a magnet. It's become a magnet and a platform for thought leadership.

Adam Posner (31:37):

I get reached out to all the time for speaking, for talking about podcasting and recruiting, and it's created a magnet, an audience, it's a legion.

Chris Ronzio (31:46):

You taking your own medicine just in the same way. You said companies should be producing content. Their people should be out there. That's what you're doing for your business.

Adam Posner (31:54):

It's exactly what I do and it's fun. I get to turn on these lights to my studio every once in a while.

Chris Ronzio (32:00):

I love it. Adam, any final tips that you want to share to people? Any final, big lesson takeaway?

Adam Posner (32:06):

This is a lesson that applies to everybody. And it was instilled with me, but on my first day of recruiting by my recruitment mentor, Tom Hall, before I turned on my computer, before I reached out to my first candidate, he said, "Listen, recruiting is insane. You're going to get pulled in a lot of different directions, but you need to stay focused and keep moving those chess pieces forward all the time."

Adam Posner (32:25):

Plan your work and work your plan. I repeat that mantra every day, plan your work and work your plan. That keeps me focused on a micro level, a macro level. I'm literally writing notes in to-do lists all day long. I look down at that list at the end of the day and I could say with confidence, "I got my stuff done for the day that I planned on."

Adam Posner (32:43):

For some reason I didn't get to it and it's got to go tomorrow, but at least I have a plan moving forward.

Chris Ronzio (32:48):

I love that. Adam Posner, again, founder and president of NHP Talent Group. Plan your work, work your plan. Take all these tips he had about recruiting. If you can't do it yourself, reach out to him or someone like that, because this is important. Businesses need to find the right people.

Chris Ronzio (33:05):

It is everything at a business to surround yourself with the right people that can do the work, that aren't ahead of their title like we talked about, and can stick with you. Adam, thanks again for all the tips.

Adam Posner (33:16):

Chris, awesome, man. Thank you for having me and great to meet your audience.