The Documentation Life Cycle With Adi Klevit

Chris Ronzio (01:44):

Welcome back to Organize Chaos. I'm your host, Chris Ronzio, and today we're talking with Adi Klevit. Hey, Adi, how are you?

Adi Klevit (01:51):

Good. How are you doing, Chris?

Chris Ronzio (01:52):

Amazing. All right, so this is going to be like a round table discussion on documentation. I know you're an expert at this. I, of course, have a little bit of experience in this. So we're going to talk about just the life cycle of documentation, why it's important in businesses, how to infuse it into your culture and get buy-in from the team, and then maybe some tips and tricks along the way. Why don't we just start at the beginning? When you're talking with people, how would you even set it up and tell them documentation's important? How do you start that?

Adi Klevit (02:26):

I think that the business has to be ready for documentation, right? Because if you have a business just starting or they are having problems getting clients or customers or patients, that's not a time, really, to document because they need to get busy and market and sell and have enough business coming in, right? From my experience is business owners know that they need to get to the next level. They want to grow. They want to scale. Maybe they're looking at selling the business and they need some systems in order to put in place so they know the business is more sellable. Maybe they're looking at acquiring another business. So they know that they're at that point, they just don't know maybe what to do or what exactly it is. When you talk to them about processes at that point, they go, "Yeah, this is exactly what I need."

Adi Klevit (03:18):

If you are at the beginning, you're just starting the business or you are marketing heavily in order to get customers and clients, I mean, you can still document, I'm not saying no, but that's not where your main focus should be.

Chris Ronzio (03:33):

Yeah, it's not the most important thing, because if you can't get any customers, then there's no one even to read the documentation, right? You should focus on that.

Adi Klevit (03:40):

That's right.

Chris Ronzio (03:40):

Yeah, I remember-

Adi Klevit (03:41):

That's exactly right because it's... Yeah, go ahead, sorry.

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The Car Analogy

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Chris Ronzio (03:45):

When I was consulting, I would give people the analogy of driving a car, and as the car started to go faster and faster on the highway, and maybe if it starts to rattle and shake, that's where you really want to invest in the systems and the infrastructure. Whereas, when the car is parked, it's not rattling. So you've got to get some momentum and make things happen first.

Adi Klevit (04:08):

I agree.

Chris Ronzio (04:10):

Yeah. I know you work with a ton of different businesses. Do you think there's a right size or stage when they start working on this?

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When Is The Right Time To Document?

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Adi Klevit (04:21):

I really like your analogy on the car, right? The car is parked, then the system doesn't have to be replaced. If we have a business that if you don't have employees or you have just a few, there is no point in doing it, right?

Chris Ronzio (04:35):

Yeah.

Adi Klevit (04:36):

Because what I wanted to say earlier, sometimes it's easier to go into the organization and how can I organize and how can I sit down and write as opposed to really face what is going on and going and selling and getting the business going, right?

Chris Ronzio (04:52):

Yeah.

Adi Klevit (04:53):

Again, you have to assess what phase your business is in. I documented processes for businesses that only had less than 10 employees, but they were very profitable, they're growing fast. But that was the type of industry, so they didn't need more employees. But they did need to have those systems documented for more efficiency, for being able to do the knowledge transfer. If one key employee left, it'll be a problem. So that way they had it. I work with companies that had 3,000 employees. So it really depends on the cycle of where the business is at and what you want to accomplish. If you want to scale, if you want to grow, that's the time to document, and it can be done with different sizes and different number of employees.

Chris Ronzio (05:40):

Yeah, I think you brought up a good point there because I think there's two types of people. There's people that are, by nature, organized and want to focus on operations and structure. There's other people that are, by nature, chaotic. They're just flying by the seat of their pants. And it's very different when you're starting a business because if you are the operations kind of person, then I think a lot of people could fall into the trap of procrastination by organization. You're just always polishing and trying to make systems, but your business isn't really producing enough revenue to sustain hiring that next person. And so, getting out of your comfort zone is getting into more sales and marketing.

Chris Ronzio (06:22):

And then the other type of person that's great at sales and marketing and has no problem getting customers but needs the consistency of how things are done and needs to offload some things from their plate to others, that's where they need to get out of their comfort zone and start working on documentation. So regardless of what type of person is building the business, I think it's funny you can deal with those different challenges.

Adi Klevit (06:47):

I agree. It seems like balance is the word, right? I mean, it depends on where you are on the business cycle. You want to have it balanced. You want to make sure that you have enough traffic coming into your company, right, you have enough demand for what you are offering. But then you also have to have the infrastructure, the system, the organization in order to be able to service all the clientele that is coming in. So where is the balance? I mean, if you have this beautiful highway that you just build but no cars, it's like a waste of money and a waste of time. But if you have a big traffic jam here and a really small road, it's not going to work either. So I think as the visionary, as the business owner, you really need to look at how do we balance the systems? How do we balance everything so everything is working together?

Chris Ronzio (07:35):

Yeah, you figure stuff out. Maybe it's messy at the beginning, but then block, you put the concrete in, and you make the system, once you've figured it out. And then little by little, your building gets bigger. So, okay, I'll try not to have so many analogies. That's where I go, I love analogies and metaphors.

Adi Klevit (07:54):

Me too. I think it's good to have analogies because it makes you think of like, "Oh yeah, that's a great analogy, so now I can compare what I have to that and figure out if it's the right time or not."

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Creating Buy-in From Your Team

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Chris Ronzio (08:05):

One of the questions I get asked a lot that I'm sure you hear too is, "Once I invest in documentation and writing everything down, how do I make sure it's followed by everybody and that it stays up to date?" So what are your thoughts on that?

Adi Klevit (08:17):

All right, so that's definitely a question that comes up a lot because you invest so much time in documenting, you want to make sure that it's actually being followed, right? The number one that needs to be in is that the business owner has to be behind it, right? The top, the C-suite, the leadership team, they have to be behind it, and they have to really believe that documentation that is needed should be done and that everyone should take part of that. Because if you don't have the backup from the leadership, it just won't take. I mean, I'll give you an example. I had a client that we documented the processes and procedures, and then I talked to them, I followed up a few months later, "Well, how's it going? Is it being followed by all?" "No, not really." I go like, "Okay, what happened?" So then I found out that whenever there is a problem or whenever they're hiring somebody new, they went back to training them by just talking as opposed to referring them to the documentation, right. Or if there is a problem, an issue that they need to process, they need to discuss, they need to use the processes and procedures.

Adi Klevit (09:33):

Because, let's say, there was something happened on the sales process, well, then let's go into Trainual, let's pull it up, let's see what happened, and then follow it. Is it a people problem or a process problem, right? Did we miss something in a process or was the process not followed? So you basically create that habit of using the documentation in order to run the organization. So if that doesn't happen, but instead saying, "Well, it's too much trouble to log in. Let's not do that. Let me just explain to you because it will take me a few seconds to explain that," well, that basically does not create a culture, the habit in order to actually follow it.

Adi Klevit (10:14):

So the number one thing to do is to basically really believe in it, not like blank blind faith, right, but really embrace it and run it all the way up to the rest of the organization. So that's number one. Number two, I would say that you have to have it accessible for all, right? So it has to be on a platform that everyone can easily access. That's with Trainual, a cloud-based program. You can just log in, and you can always know where it is. So don't make it into some Word documents that are basically somewhere on the computer that nobody can find, right? You have to keep it current and not obsolete because it's enough that you have a process and somebody says, "Well, yeah, we documented it three years ago. We just don't do it like that anymore."

Adi Klevit (11:02):

It basically knows everything because then you start wondering, "Well, if we don't do this anymore, I don't know if the other one do we do it or we don't do it." Right? So you have to make sure the processes are being current and that you are using it. Does that make sense?

Chris Ronzio (11:17):

Yeah. Yeah, great point. First, you mentioned the business owner having to embrace it. And I think also any managers, any leaders have to embrace it because there has to be a culture of wanting to write things down and carving out the time and space to document things. Because if someone is working on documenting a best practice and their manager says, "Oh no, no, put that down, that's not important for right now, I need you to work on this other thing," and they're constantly kicking it to the back burner, then that's going to be a subconscious lesson that they've just taught that person on this isn't important. And so, you need to be able to create that space in the organization where you're constantly as a leader saying, "Oh, did you update the system? Can you find some time this week to update the system?" Because, I think, the more they see that you're in support of that, the more they'll start to do that themselves. So that was a great point.

Chris Ronzio (12:15):

Making it accessible, of course, you need to have it on you, and we're trying to do that more and more with the system. It's not just good enough to have it on your computer, in your pocket, it needs to be a question away. And so, people that are listening, what you'll start to see in our product as it evolves is that we want you to be able to ask it the questions that you have about your business and those things to be just really accessible. So definitely working on that, but great points.

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Building Momentum With Your Documentation Efforts

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Chris Ronzio (12:46):

When the team starts the project like this, it can be a big, a daunting task. How can people have the momentum to continue getting through this project, and not to say that it ever ends, but to stick with it? How do you build momentum when documenting the business?

Adi Klevit (13:10):

I think it starts with having wins. I mean, that's how you build momentum, right? Because people will continue to do things that they're enjoying, things that actually give them ROI, things that they feel like there is some kind of a reason why doing it, right? So in order to build momentum, I always like to start with that area that if you had well-documented processes and procedures will get you the biggest return on investment. You just need to know where to start the documentation. I know, Chris, you addressed it in your book, and I think that is super important, is to know where to start. Because if right now I'm going to start, let's say, there is no problems in your HR department, but you decided to start documenting your HR department, well, it's demoralizing because you're not going to see a lot of changes. You're going to have great documentation.

Adi Klevit (13:59):

But if you know that your HR staff is stable, they're not going anywhere, but here you have fires and problems in your operations or your sales department, start with the sales department. If you are about to hire three estimators, start with your sales department. Then you will see how you're putting order, and things will become easier and easier to put more order and more order. And then eventually, you'll document everything, but that way, you can actually do it in a very focused, planned way that gives you immediate wins. It's like the long hanging fruit that can immediately create an impact in the organization.

Chris Ronzio (14:42):

Yeah, absolutely. There's certain roles that have a lot of chaos in them. You may have a lot of people doing one thing, and so there's a greater risk of inconsistency, and that could be a really good place to start. Or you might have an area of your business where there is negative customer feedback or something like that. You really need to dig into that and figure out what is the best way, what is the best practice that we should all be using in this area of the business? And you're right, as soon as you write those things down and you get everyone's buy-in, you start to see the win, like, "Okay, we fixed that area of the business, now let's move on to this one. Now let's move on to this one." And that is what creates the momentum or the snowball effect.

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Helping Clients Realize Why They Need To Document

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Chris Ronzio (15:24):

This is definitely a team effort. You've got to create buy-in across the team to get this started first. And so when you're working with a client of yours, how do you initially build trust of, "Okay, you're coming in, and what is she here for? What is this all about?"? How do you build trust from the beginning?

Adi Klevit (15:46):

The way that I do it is I interview, either myself or one of the consultants that is on my team, that they're all very qualified and have a lot of experience. We come in, and first of all, we interview the stakeholders. We decide who the stakeholders are, and then we interview them and we ask them a bunch of questions. We survey them to find their why, why documenting, why processes and procedures? How is that going to help you? Help help the company, of course, but how is it going to help you? What are your goals? Whether you would like to actually be able to leave work at five o'clock or 5:30, but you can do it right now, whether you want to get promoted but you are the only one who knows how to do what you're doing right now. Maybe you want an assistant. You feel like you are so overloaded and you need an assistant. That's an example.

Adi Klevit (16:41):

I mean, I was working with a company where they had very seasoned salespeople, and I'm coming there to document their sales procedures, and they go like, "Why do we need to do that? I mean, we're not going anywhere, we know what to do. We are not going to spend the time. We much rather be out there selling and making money." I did that survey on them and really found out that what they're running into is they would love to... And the problem that they were running into is that when they pass the sale to the operations, it's not a smooth pass. So then the client get upset, they sometimes want refund. So it's a problem, that part of the process was a problem.

Adi Klevit (17:19):

So then I talked to them and we brainstormed and said, "Okay, well, if that part would be smooth, they're willing to ride the process from beginning to end so operations can really understand what sales is doing because they're not going to run into that problem, and that's definitely going to avoid a lot of problems." They're also really wanted a sales assistant because they felt that they can go and sell more if there can be an assistant that can help them throughout the process. But without having a documented process, they really didn't know what would the assistant do. So by documenting it, we actually gave them an assistant and we also smoothed out the passing from sales to operations, and that made it very smooth, and they all had a buy-in that. So it's really selling to the people you are working with what's their why and how can we accomplish their why.

Chris Ronzio (18:12):

Yeah, so it's really a communication thing. I mean, I did the same. When I would do consulting, I would go in and do all these interviews with people, get to know them so that I could then influence, well, here's how this is a solution that will help you achieve your goals. And so, you're right, it is selling to an extent. And in the absence of that communication and the context and the goals, people can snap into a place of fear or misunderstanding, or, "Why are we doing this? Are they trying to get rid of me? Is the company downsizing?" And that's a very unhealthy outcome. And so, I think the more upfront you can be about why we're doing this as a company, how this is going to impact you in a positive way, then you start to get people that want to participate because they see this activity as the most productive thing that they could be doing for the business because it's furthering them toward their goals. And everyone in a company wants to get closer to their own goals and aspirations, and so this is a tool to make that happen.

Chris Ronzio (19:14):

Can you measure buy-in across the team? Is there a way to know, or is it just surveying and saying, "Okay, I've, I've spoken to 10 of 10 people, they're all on board."?

Adi Klevit (19:27):

Well, I think the proof is in the pudding, right? I mean, you start working and you can see who is engaged, who shows up for the calls, who participates, who is very eager to share information or willing to share information as opposed to somebody who doesn't show up. They feel like this is not going anywhere. They're not sharing all the information. So I think it's really the engagement, you can see it, right. And also, coming up with new ideas on how to improve if that's what we are looking for and just being there and participating. That, I think, is the measurement of the buy-in.

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How Much Should I Document?

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Chris Ronzio (20:01):

Yeah, participating, engagement. And I guess you can measure someone's contributions. If they're really against it, then they're probably not going to contribute much. But if they're for it, then you can see what they're populating in your playbook. Are they actually putting things in there? Are they're participating? Is their time across the week being spent on this? So that's one way to do it. I guess the last topic we can cover before we wrap this up is, how much should someone document? How deep do you go? You could think of all of the knowledge in a business could be one of those old-school Encyclopedia Britannica sets with so much information. So how deep do you go? How much to write down?

Adi Klevit (20:49):

First of all, it, again, depends on the type of the business. I find that businesses that are very technical, they need a lot of details or they have a lot of compliance, you do have to go that deep on the operations side because you need to train your employees to use it, you need to show compliance, you need to make sure that the quality control is there. If you are a business that is less technical, let's say, for instance, a law firm, okay, so I documented several law firms, and it's very important to onboard a new attorney or onboard a new staff, how to actually talk to the clients, service the clients, all the admin lines, where do you log things? How do you create a file? Where do you do it? All of those have to be documented, but how am I going to run a trial is not necessarily needed to be documented.

Adi Klevit (21:39):

But, whereas, if I'm working with an engineering firm and there are specific things that need to be documented so you have that quality control aspect, you have to go deeper into the documentation. But it all comes back to, what are you trying to accomplish, right? I mean, if you're trying to accomplish to document, to do knowledge transfer of specific knowledge that one individual has and the rest don't, and if you lose that individual, that knowledge is going to go away, you have to document it, right?

Chris Ronzio (22:10):

Yes.

Adi Klevit (22:11):

But if you're trying to accomplish, let's say... you want to make sure that everybody does it... like in sales, you want to make sure everyone does it consistently so you have a consistent sales process, but you still have the individual salespeople, you can maybe suggest a script, but you're not going to have them memorize the script. So there is no point in writing the script. You can write best advice of what to say, but I won't document the script. But honestly, Chris, this is also where using a video, it's very important. Because sometimes, okay, how deep do you want to go? You can always record a video, and if somebody wants to have more information, they can listen to the video as opposed to start writing pages and pages, right? Or you can use pictures, screenshots, whatever it is. So if you want to go deeper and really understand how to do it, let's say, for instance, I can have screenshots on how to do something in QuickBooks. But if I hire a bookkeeper that knows how to run QuickBooks, she or he, they do not need to look at the screenshots, but they know they need to know what I'm expecting and what is my process.

Adi Klevit (23:18):

Even in Trainual, you have four levels, right? I mean, you have the different subjects, you have a topic, then you have the steps, right? I mean you can go deep. You can just look overall the big process, and then you can also look at the actual description if you need to while you are training or while you are trying to learn something new.

Chris Ronzio (23:39):

Yeah. As you were talking, I was just thinking about the visual of little by little gathering all the information in your business. It's a big project, and it's one that we're always doing forever, but the end result of having this tangible, physical representation of, "Here's how my company works. Here's how all the roles in the business works. Here's what's expected of people. Here's what a good job looks like," that's going to look different for every business, but it's in constant pursuit of that that we all are. We're little by little trying to give instruction and give clarity and create alignment. And we start with the areas of the business that need it the most.

Chris Ronzio (24:23):

So it's going to be different for everyone, but like you mentioned, a video is better than nothing. Screenshots, the written text, how detailed you get depends on the person on the receiving end of that training and what experience they have and what you're expecting of them. So there's no silver bullet here, unfortunately, for everyone listening, but if you work with someone like Adi, then it just gets easier, and you've got to guide to help you make it happen. Any final thoughts before we wrap this up?

Adi Klevit (24:55):

Yeah, I think really is that get started, I mean, that's what I would say, right? Don't overthink it. Get started. The advice is find an area that if you get started, it will give you the biggest return on investment, the biggest order, it will solve confusions. Take that area, map it on a high level, start. And it's very easy to do it when you use a process documentation platform. You go into Trainual, you go, "Okay, subject is sales. Oka, what are the main points of sale? How do I sell?" And then you can populate it. You can create videos. You can continue later maybe, but at least you got started. So my advice is really get started.

Chris Ronzio (25:38):

I love it. All right. Adi, where can people find you if they want to look more into the kind of work that you do?

Adi Klevit (25:44):

They can find me on the Trainual website, I'm one of the Platinum members. So you can go there and look at consultants and I'll be there. Or my website is bizsuccesscg.com.

Chris Ronzio (25:55):

All right, perfect. Well, thank you so much for being here, a great conversation about documentation. Hopefully valuable for all the listeners, and we'll see you next time on Organize Chaos.