Breaking Down Innovation Barriers with Natalie Painchaud

Chris Ronzio (00:57):

Hey everyone, and welcome to Organize Chaos. I'm your host, Chris Ronzio and today I'm here with an old friend of mine, Natalie Painchaud. Hey Natalie.

Natalie Painchaud (01:33):

Hey Chris. Good to be here.

Chris Ronzio (01:35):

I'm so excited to talk with you and to dive into your book, Eat, Sleep, Innovate. So we're going to talk about this a lot. But before we go deeper in the book, how can we not go deeper on the fact that we worked together 15 years ago, which when I was looking up the math, the dates, and it feels so crazy to be able to say that.

Natalie Painchaud (01:56):

That is wild and we don't look any different from then.

Chris Ronzio (01:59):

Haven't aged at all. So can you give everyone just a quick intro on Innosight, what Innosight is and what your role is there?

Natalie Painchaud (02:08):

Absolutely. So Innosight was co-founded by Clayton Christensen, the late great Clayton Christensen from the Harvard Business School, who really is the guru of disruptive innovations. So co-founded by Clay and Mark Johnson. And Innosight's purpose is probably the best way to describe what we do. So it's to empower forward looking organizations to navigate disruptive change and own the future. So what that means is we help companies work on strategy, building innovation capabilities, and most recently really focusing on culture as well. And I've been with Innosight, this is my 18th year.

Chris Ronzio (02:49):

18, crazy. So what led you personally to Innosight? How did you get there?

Natalie Painchaud (02:55):

Yeah. Well, kind of my own background, I've always fascinated by people at work and this idea that we spend like 90,000 plus hours of our lives at work. So how I got to Innosight, I prior to Innosight worked to an MIT professor, we helped organizations really think about what's next, how to create the next versions of themselves. So what brought me to Innosight was really Clay, Clay's books, just loved learning about how organizations think about innovation, how they do create the next versions of themselves. And when I joined Innosight, I was employee number 12 at the time. So that was a time when everybody did everything, which I think will be interesting to you as you think about Trainual and the work that you do.

Chris Ronzio (03:44):

Yeah. Wow. So you joined as number 12 and now today you're Director of Learning, is that right?

Natalie Painchaud (03:51):

That's right. Yep. Director of Learning. And I spend my time between both internal onboarding new employees, as well as working with clients primarily around leadership development and culture.

Chris Ronzio (04:03):

So we could talk for hours about your... between your role and the synergies of that and everything that I do and the book of course, but I'll just share, when I found out about Innosight, so I was in college in the Boston area and I saw this quote by Scott Anthony that was in, I think, Entrepreneur or Fast Cut, it was in one of those magazines and it had just a little quote from him and said, "Scott, Anthony, Boston based innovation consulting company." And that to me was like, check, check, check, like all the boxes. How do I find out who they are and what they do? And so I sent a cold email and somehow got to be an intern there. So for anyone listening, this was such a transformational experience for me, just getting to be surrounded by these incredible smart people and really just immersed in innovation and what is disruptive innovation and how do we solve problems for companies. So I'm sure it's been a crazy experience for you over 18 years. Has it changed a lot?

Natalie Painchaud (05:10):

Well, first, I mean, that's just so cool to hear. And you, I mean, you created tremendous impact. I don't know if you remember, we worked on some work for the newspaper industry.

Chris Ronzio (05:19):

Yeah, the Globe, I remember it. Yeah.

Natalie Painchaud (05:21):

... and helped us create some amazing videos and interviewed Clay. I remember we went to his office and interviewed him.

Chris Ronzio (05:27):

Yeah. And Scott Cook at the time, we did some really cool interviews. I was pinching myself of the people that I got to just be in a room with. So many of the cool companies that you all worked with. So that-

Natalie Painchaud (05:38):

That was amazing. But you're right, Chris-

Chris Ronzio (05:39):

That's cool that we even remember.

Natalie Painchaud (05:42):

Yeah. Oh, I have a good memory. I have a really good memory. But one of the things I think about Innosight is we just do the good stuff, right? It's all growth, it's all future focus. It's innovation, creating new things that deliver value. And so that's the thing that's kept me there. And also you just get to work with, like you said, all of these amazing companies around the world, being invited in, and the beautiful thing about consulting is you just learn so much from your clients. Sometimes you pinch yourself and say, "How'd I get this lucky?" So, made a lot of friends, learned a lot and still here, so.

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Biggest Misconception About Innovation

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Chris Ronzio (06:22):

Amazing. Okay. So as we start to dip our tail into the innovation concept, I guess what is the biggest misconception about innovation? When people hear that they should be spending time on innovation, what do you think... Where does their mind go that's maybe misguided?

Natalie Painchaud (06:41):

Yep. So I think, and this goes back to Clay's research too, it's conflating innovation with breakthrough, new technology, brand new to the world, when it really is trying something different that is creating value, as you said earlier, that's solving a problem. The other misconception is, it's just for the few, the elites, there's only a few people that can do innovation when really innovation can be part of everyone's job inside of every organization. And there is just so much like untapped potential inside of organizations. So those are the two things that come to mind.

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Book: Eat, Sleep, Innovate

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Chris Ronzio (07:19):

Yeah. It does sound like a word that people can put on a pedestal and think, "Oh, that's only the cutting edge, fancy companies that do that." But really everyone is innovating all the time, or they should be if they're doing it right, if it's part of their culture. So, I guess that brings us to the book, Eat, Sleep, Innovate. I told you before we started recording, I feel that this is... If I was living correctly, this is all I should probably do. Maybe play with my kids if there is room on the cover for anything else. But how did the book come about and who else is involved in it for anyone listening?

Natalie Painchaud (07:55):

Yes. So the book came about, actually you mentioned Scott Anthony earlier, so Scott, at the time, I think it was five or six years ago, he was meeting with a big global, I think logistics company. And the CEO was saying, "Okay, Scott, I've read your books. We understand, we've created a separate group to focus on disruption. What about the other 28,000 employees?" And it was kind of a great question. Didn't have the answer to that. And then a couple years later, a gentleman called Paul Cobban, one of the co-authors on the book from DBS Bank, which is the development bank of Singapore, asked Scott the same question he said, :Can we create a culture by design, a culture of innovation by design?" So the stars aligned and we start working with Paul and that's one of the featured case studies in the book. And the book is a collaboration between Scott Anthony, Andy Parker, who's another partner in our Singapore office and Paul Cobban, and myself.

Chris Ronzio (08:56):

So fun story, real tangential, but Scott Anthony, he also had another book that was The Little Black Book of Innovation I think it was called-

Natalie Painchaud (09:07):

He's got like seven books, but that is one. Yes.

Chris Ronzio (09:10):

Yeah. And so I took the headshot photo for him and so in the back of the book, he gives me a little photo credit for the headshot. And so for years, if you search for my name on Amazon, before I had a book, that's the one that would come up. And so I love that we'll be tied together forever, you could tell him that.

Natalie Painchaud (09:29):

I love that.

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5 Behaviors Of Innovation

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Chris Ronzio (09:31):

So in the book, there's a lot of content about how you can create a culture of innovation and there were five behaviors to drive successful innovation. So I was thinking we could go through some of those behaviors.

Natalie Painchaud (09:43):

Absolutely.

Chris Ronzio (09:43):

So can you start off just sharing, what are these?

Natalie Painchaud (09:47):

Sure. Yep. And there's a table in there. I can see you flipping to it.

Chris Ronzio (09:51):

Yep. I got it.

Natalie Painchaud (09:52):

So we found through our research, through our field work and the words may be different, but it ultimately comes down to five behaviors that when they're done kind of every day in an organization that enables this culture of innovation. So the first one, not surprisingly, is curiosity. Do we see people asking questions where they challenge the status quo? They're saying, "What if, could we try things differently?" Versus the "That's just the way things have always been done here." The second one is customer obsession or customer centricity. And of course you'll remember all the work on jobs to be done, right? So understanding who are our customers? What are the functional, what are the emotional, how do people want to feel and what are the social jobs to be done? How do they want to be perceived by others? And not just to this point that it's only the marketing people understanding the customer, but there truly is this customer obsession throughout the organization.

Natalie Painchaud (10:50):

The third one is collaborative, this idea that innovation really happens at intersections where there are those collisions and there's a humility to understand that the smartest person in the room is the room itself. So do we see that cross functional collaboration happening? The fourth one is a mouthful, it's adept in ambiguity. So this idea that risk, isn't a bad word, it's something that can be talked about, that can be managed, that there is a practice where people say, "Gosh, what is the underlying assumption here? What needs to be true? How do we run an experiment and learn about that?" And then the last one is my favorite, which our client from P and G used to always say, which is so it's empowered. And this idea to do something different, you actually have to do something, right? So do we see people taking initiative? So those are the five. And like I said, the words might look different, but ultimately it kind of comes down to those five.

Chris Ronzio (11:51):

And so do you think that companies should take an inventory of where they stack up on these things? Like if someone wants to be more innovative, if they want their culture to be more innovative, what is the assessment, the self-reflection that they do to see where they're at today?

Natalie Painchaud (12:08):

So one little plug. So we also have a toolkit through Harvard Business Review that people can get to run like their own little culture sprint, but you're absolutely right. Start with an assessment. We have a free assessment on eatsleepinnovate.com that goes through the five behaviors. The other thing that we work with clients on is just doing what we call a BEAN storm. You remember, we love acronyms too. So we'll talk a little bit about what a BEAN is or a culture sprint this idea of saying, let's start with these five behaviors, but then say, what do they really mean in our organization? How do they actually show up and then work through a process where you say, well, what are the things we do instead, what's holding us back so that you can then start to put in place behavior, enablers, artifacts, and nudges to support you with those new behaviors.

Chris Ronzio (13:01):

Okay. So we'll have to dig deep into the BEANs and the BEAN storms, because I think that's a fun, little saying. Before we do, building a software company, which is new for me in the last few years, I was blown away by how much of the jobs to be done, methodology and the phrases are just part of UX, UI, product management in building software applications. So have you seen this be more prevalent in today's businesses than maybe it was 18 years ago?

Natalie Painchaud (13:36):

Definitely. And that's great to hear Dave Duncan who just wrote a book on that will be happy to hear. But absolutely and I think stepping out also from, like you said, the UX software into lots of different industries, including B2B. So definitely something that we see resonates with people. And we did this with the newspaper industry too, if you'll remember. But one of the things I've always thought about jobs to be done, it's like an easy concept to get, it's a lot harder to put into practice. And so that's something that we still do a lot of training and capability around kind of building that muscle inside of organizations.

Chris Ronzio (14:16):

Yeah, for me, I mean, one of the first things I learned were hearing Clay talk about the milkshakes and the drills and those examples still hold up. They're amazing examples today.

Natalie Painchaud (14:30):

The milkshakes live on.

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Is Innovation A Learned Behavior?

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Chris Ronzio (14:31):

Okay, so would you say innovation is a learned behavior or are there just certain people like the Steve Jobs and so on that just have this in their DNA?

Natalie Painchaud (14:45):

Well, I love that you mentioned your kids and you talked about does play fit in there too, because one of the things is the good news is we're all able to do those five things. We're all born with that innate curiosity to ask questions, to connect with each other, you watch... Are you familiar with the marshmallow challenge, with the spaghetti?

Chris Ronzio (15:08):

Oh yeah, yeah. The delayed gratification thing, that one?

Natalie Painchaud (15:10):

No, different one. So this is the one where they ran it with the CEOs and with kindergartners and you give people, I think it's like 10 strands of spaghetti, a large marshmallow and string. And you say, you have however many minutes, it's called the marshmallow challenge, to build the tallest tower, but the marshmallow has to be on top. And so what you see is when you run this with executives, they kind of jostle for who's in charge and they build these elaborate structures and then they wait until the last minute to put the marshmallow and the whole thing collapses. But you watch five year olds do it and they put the marshmallow on top. They do these super creative things with the tape and the string and they tend to do better than the executives.

Chris Ronzio (15:55):

That's so cool. I know, my son's in first grade and he did some little bridge building thing, it was like how many Popsicle sticks can with a bridge can hold however many pennies. And he won, it had like 200 pennies and he has never been more proud than when he came home. So, I guess as executives, we should be doing those things at work. Right?

Natalie Painchaud (16:16):

Exactly. We should be playing more. We should be experimenting because one of the things is we can practice these things and we get into how you do that in the book. But the good news, like I said, is we're all born with this capability. What happens though inside of organizations, you face a lot of headwinds like, "Oh, but that's not the way things are done here or is this going to hold me back?" So there's definitely a lot of what we call blockers inside of organizations real and perceived. Right?

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BEANs Framework & Innovation Blockers

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Chris Ronzio (16:48):

Yeah. So, I wanted to ask, and maybe this is a blocker question, but what kind of things are preventing people from innovating more regularly? What gets in the way?

Natalie Painchaud (17:00):

So the first thing you always hear, so when we work with clients and they say, "I want to build a culture of innovation and then we don't have time, we don't have the resources." And so what we've found is incredibly impactful is when you can say, "Let's go beyond that," because we know that constraints actually lead to innovation, right? Entrepreneurs know this because it forces you to be creative. But inside of organizations, what we find is once you get beyond the, "Oh, we don't have time or resources," you start to get to the underlying things like, "Oh, okay, we want collaboration. What do we do instead. We defer to the most senior person. We bite our tongue. We stay quiet." We want people to be empowered, but we bombard them with these policies or we don't help them navigate it. So once you can start to get to those specific things, one of my favorite ones is the bank that we worked with in Singapore DBS, they were saying, "Oh, okay, we want to have more equal share voice and meetings."

Natalie Painchaud (18:07):

But the conversations are dominated by the hippos, which is the highest paid person's opinion. So once you can kind of, don't be a hippo once you can call that out and make it safe to talk about it, it's really helpful. One thing we actually did with them, I don't know if you're familiar with this gentleman, Tom Fishburne, he goes by the Marketoonist. He's great. So he does like kind of corporate cartoons. We worked with him to kind of bring some humor to these blockers. We had one that was an org chart and we're saying let's make decisions made by data, not the hippos, and there was an org chart and the decision was the most senior person. And this senior guy was like, "I don't get the joke." And the rest of the group was like, "It's cause it's you." And he's like, "OK." So humor can be helpful to surface and identify some of those blockers.

Chris Ronzio (19:02):

Well, that's cool. We started putting these little pink elephants in our meeting rooms where people can hold up and it was for kind of a different thing, but it's a fun way for someone to grab that and make a humorous situation so that the meetings stay light. So, don't be a hippo that could end up being the title of the episode. We'll see, that's a contender as of right now. In my world, when I get asked about innovation, a lot of what we're doing is talking about best practices and processes and the question I get is, "Well, how do you make your culture always want to be striving for the new best practice instead of just accepting the way things have been done?" So any tips on how to make this a bottoms up kind of thing?

Natalie Painchaud (19:53):

Yeah, I like that. And I think it depends on the organization. At NSI, we have a lot of people with a lot of ideas. We're not so into the standard operating procedures. It's like, we should... Maybe there's the thing of too much curiosity. But I think if organizations can just shine a light on this and bring some attention and say, I think I was listening in your podcast episode where you were talking about starting with the first P, was it purpose or the context, like why are we doing this?

Chris Ronzio (20:23):

The profile of the business.

Natalie Painchaud (20:24):

The profile of the business.

Chris Ronzio (20:25):

Yeah, all the context of the business.

Natalie Painchaud (20:25):

Exactly. So if you can come back to that mission, vision, purpose, and say here's where innovation fits in. So help people see the connection and then run them through something like in the book in chapter four, we talk about this idea of a culture sprint, where I got excited listening to your podcast though, was... Okay. So we'll get to the BEANs of this idea, of the interventions to get people to try these behaviors, but we want them to be trackable, we want to make it easy for people to do and that's where the light bulb was going off for me around this is where something like Trainual could really help create and foster a culture of innovation.

Chris Ronzio (21:05):

Did you want to tell us more about the culture sprints and how to make those work?

Natalie Painchaud (21:09):

Yeah, sure. So with those five behaviors and we say those are the desired behaviors we kind of start with, okay, here's what we strive to do. And then we say, as we talked about, what are those blockers, what gets in the way? And then we have the... that's a very cathartic experience and what's interesting about the blockers is you get people from different parts of the organization and they say, "Oh, you feel that too. That's how I feel. Oh, I didn't know you were like that." It's just this moment of, let's call it release, which oftentimes I think people are afraid of being negative, but then you say, okay, now we're going to do some solutioning, right? So how are we going to encourage that behavior, let's say of curiosity, how are we going to overcome that blocker? And what we use is we borrow from the field of behavioral economics and all the writings around nudges, oftentimes it applies more in our personal life, like how to get to the gym or eat healthier, but bring it into an organizational context.

Natalie Painchaud (22:09):

So we say, what are some of those behavior enablers, those are direct ways to encourage the behavior. Could be a checklist, for example. Then we say, what are those artifacts and nudges, the indirect ways it might be your pink elephant, right, so just like that visual reminder, or the hippo, to encourage people to live that behavior and overcome that blocker and to do that in a systematic way where you might be launching lots of different BEANs and you say, "Okay, here's the behavior that we're looking to do. Here's the blocker we're looking to overcome," and you track it. So you say, oh, is this actually helping us make progress here? And we've done this with a bunch of organizations, we have 101 examples of these BEANs in the book that we encourage people to borrow, leverage. We say, adapt, don't just adopt. So look through it for inspiration and then make it your own.

Chris Ronzio (23:08):

So you've been kind of defining this as we've gone, but BEAN.

Natalie Painchaud (23:11):

Yes.

Chris Ronzio (23:13):

Is behavior enablers artifacts and nudges. And so, these are kind of like the toolkits to innovate on a particular area of the business, right?

Natalie Painchaud (23:23):

So they're kind of the tool to help you do that behavior over and over again. So if in your business you want people asking what if or being curious, challenging the status quo, then you could put in place a BEANs that will help you to see that behavior show up more on your team.

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BEANs overload... Trying To Solve Too Many Things At Once?

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Chris Ronzio (23:43):

Yeah, very cool. So is there a possibility of being overload, trying to solve too many things at once? How do you go about employing these?

Natalie Painchaud (24:00):

I love that question. And I think there definitely is. So I think you want to start with let's go big, let's brainstorm, but then let's tie it back and say, "Okay, what are the experiments that we want to run? What are some things that we might do top down?" Like one or two, for example. One of the things that DBS did is they have what's called their culture radar. So they said, "Here's where we're running experiments and teams. If they go well, then we'll move it up to the department level. If that goes well, then we'll move it up to the division or company wide." I'll just give you an example of one from there, which was more of a top down. So as they were saying, "We want to move from being stodgy, old bank to being," they referred to themselves as "damn bloody slow," and they said, "We want to be a startup. We want everyone to be a startup." And you're like, that's a huge gap. So how's that going to work? What Paul discovered-

Chris Ronzio (24:58):

And for context, can you share, how many employees do they have?

Natalie Painchaud (25:01):

I think that it's about 28,000. Yeah, so.

Chris Ronzio (25:03):

28,000. All right. So think of a 28,000 person company wanting to be a startup, all right. I'm sorry. I interrupted.

Natalie Painchaud (25:09):

And going from damn bloody slow.

Chris Ronzio (25:11):

Yeah.

Natalie Painchaud (25:12):

So what Paul discovered when they did this whole thing, they said, we want more equal shared voice, collaboration. One of their biggest blockers is their meeting culture, just terrible culture, right? Start late, only the senior person talks, no decisions made. Paul was almost sad, he was like, "That's such a mundane thing to focus on," but they focused on it. They brought in this BEAN called MOJO, again, another acronym, but meeting owner joyful observer, and they have little cards, little reminders in the meeting room. And I can tell you, because I've been there, they do this in every meeting. So there's always a meeting owner who's responsible for the agenda, making sure it starts and ends on time, that there's equal share of voice. And then there's a joyful observer. So if you're the joyful observer, you're looking to me and saying, "Is Natalie really doing these things and taking some notes?" And at the end of the meeting, you give me feedback in front of everybody else did a great job here could do more here.

Natalie Painchaud (26:12):

So if you think about it, that the behavior enabler is that checklist of things to do, the artifact and the nudge is the load card. And also, I know you're going to give me feedback in front of everybody. And then the stories kind of went around the organization of where the CEO got feedback and they saw their engagement scores, especially when it came to collaboration, feeling heard, go up and it's been really successful for them. So that's an example of a top down one that tackles, I think a problem a lot of companies have, bad meetings.

Chris Ronzio (26:46):

Yeah, absolutely. So when I read that I sent it to our chief of staff and I was like, "We need some MOJO. We're going to..." So I'll let you know how our meetings improve.

Natalie Painchaud (26:54):

Great. Another contender for the title.

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What Is BEAN-storming?

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Chris Ronzio (26:59):

Yeah. More MOJO. All right. Hippos and MOJO. This just keeps getting better. So you also talk about BEAN storming, which it sounds like that was the process of figuring out how to make these things work is anything else to share tips around that?

Natalie Painchaud (27:13):

So I would say one of the things, and I think this actually ties nicely with some of kind of your core principles is how do you make a BEAN better? How do you boost it? So kind of the checklist is try to make it as simple as possible. Try to make it practical, so just really easy for people to put into place. Find ways to reinforce it, that it's organizationally consistent, it makes sense. Right? So you, can't just what works in one organization and copy and paste it into yours. But that doesn't mean you can't start with them to get some ideas. And then the important one, which is hard to do, but so important is having some metrics and making it trackable, like you said, so you don't get the BEAN overload.

Chris Ronzio (28:00):

So we have a few core values that we tie to being innovated and having autonomy and ownership in the company and some of the things that we've done are just the emojis that represent those and giving people praise throughout the day on slack or something. And the awards that we give out at our all hands meetings. And so are we thinking about that in the right way, in terms of how to enforce the innovation culture?

Natalie Painchaud (28:24):

Awards are a great example. The badges are really good and you could even think about... So two things, one is maybe saying, okay, what do those badges do? What are they helping us do more of. They're kind of encouraging people to feel empowered or we're applauding the collaboration. And then the second thing is you might want to even bring this process to bring some of your folks along to create new ones of these as you're thinking about what will it take for you all to be successful in the future? What behaviors do you need to see from everybody?

Chris Ronzio (28:57):

Yeah. I love that. Okay. Well, we'll have to do some BEAN storming at our next retreat. I'll bring that up. Okay. So you also had some really cool suggestions for icebreakers, and maybe these are some practical takeaways that people can use in their businesses to be a little bit more collaborative and to start meetings off but do you mind sharing a couple of those examples?

Natalie Painchaud (29:20):

I'll share one of my favorite. I don't think you went through our bootcamp to do... But so one of the things that we do with our bootcamp is, and I borrowed this from a client, is I have everybody send ahead of time their favorite song and artist, but I don't tell them why I'm going to use it. And a lot of people think it's for karaoke. So I shouldn't do that because poor new hires are worried. But then what I do is I just make a playlist and throughout our four, seven day training, we'll play the song. And so people have to guess whose song is that? So they guess your song. And then you would just share a little bit about yourself, why that song is special to you. And it's just a great way for people to connect. And then the artifact that you get out of it is a very odd playlist with lots of different things on it, but it makes you think of everybody who was there.

Chris Ronzio (30:14):

Oh, that's great. Okay. I love it. We'll have to do that. We can do that at our retreat too, I guess just ask everybody's favorite songs. That'll be fun. Yeah. I've done it at mastermind kind of groups where I go away with a group of people where we each suggest a few songs and then you kind of play a game of trying to guess who song is playing and you only get two guesses and then you're out and whoever wins at the end is... So it's kind of adds little element of competition.

Natalie Painchaud (30:39):

I like the competitive. Another thing we've done recently, a lot of companies I think have done this in the pandemic, but I have a slide at the beginning of a session that says, "What's your mood today?" And we have baby Yoda, we have dogs. We have Ben Affleck with iced coffee, we have nine pictures of him. But just to start the meeting where people say, "Oh yeah, I feel like a three or two." And it just kind of gets everyone focused and it's kind of lighthearted.

Chris Ronzio (31:06):

That's cool. Well, I want to shift a little bit because your role with Innosight today is of course, facilitating, learning, helping with onboarding and which is something that we preach a lot about. And so I'm curious, what do you do for onboarding new cohorts of employees to make them feel like innovation is part of our culture here at Innosight?

Natalie Painchaud (31:35):

Yeah. I think you mentioned this in your podcast too. It's fresh off my mind. I absolutely love when new people join because they see things that I don't see anymore. They remind me, "Oh gosh, that's why I'm here." They remind me just how cool this job is. So some of the things that we do and that I've really learned is we make the bootcamp, we have them do an actual case. We have them work in teams, really feels like this is what it will be like when you get on a project. We use real projects. The other thing, and it's funny, you never know if people think these things are silly or they love them. I've learned they love them, but we have other consultants role play the like clients or do mock interviews.

Natalie Painchaud (32:22):

So we give them practice one of the things... So I got certified as an executive coach and when you do a coaching program, you always have coach, client and observer. So I like to set up the training so that there is always this coach, client, observer situation going on where everybody is learning from each other. And it's really important. One thing we say at the beginning and throughout is we have our Innosight values, things like humility, intellectual curiosity, impact, and we want people to see those and how we're all showing up in the training. And we're very explicit about that. So hopefully that is what people actually experience.

Chris Ronzio (33:03):

Well, I wish I got a chance to go through the bootcamp 15 years ago. I feel like it was I would just show up and listen and sit around and hope I just can soak in all the brilliance around me.

Natalie Painchaud (33:17):

Well maybe you can come as a alumni speaker or something. I think people would really enjoy that. So we'll have to follow up on that.

Chris Ronzio (33:25):

I would love that. I would love that. All right. That sounds great. Well, your book is awesome. So many practical tools in here, so Eat, Sleep, Innovate. Everybody's got to check this out. Her co-authors are incredible as well, but Natalie, where could people go if they want to follow along with all the content related to this? I know you already mentioned the toolkit, so yes. Maybe just give them a place to go one more time.

Natalie Painchaud (33:46):

Sure. So eatsleepinnovate.com has lots of resources there. We have the self-assessment. We also have some videos of conversations we've done with clients and companies who are featured in the book. So highly recommend those. And we have some fun videos too, so. And then I'm happy to connect with people on LinkedIn.

Chris Ronzio (34:06):

All right. So look for Natalie on LinkedIn, check out eatsleepinnovate.com and look at the toolbox that they have for implementing some of this in your business. Start with that assessment, I think that's a great idea just to figure out where you're at today and I will be sharing my updates as we introduce the MOJO and don't be hips and just sprout BEANs left and right around here at Trainual. Natalie, thank you so much for coming on.

Natalie Painchaud (34:33):

Thanks so much, Chris. Great to reconnect. Really enjoyed it.