Chris: Hey everyone, I’m Chris Ronzio, founder and CEO of Trainual and this is Process Makes Perfect. As always, we’re talking with experts in process creation, automation, delegation, basically the people that just know how to make business easier. And today we have with us René Boer. René is the bestselling co-author, along with Gino Wickman, of How To Be a Great Boss. Who doesn’t want to learn more about that? He has more than 30 years of experience in the restaurant industry, leading teams at well-known brands like Pizza Hut, Arby’s, and Jamba Juice. And as a franchisee, corporate executive, and entrepreneur, he’s experienced firsthand the tremendous impact that great bosses have by developing and building their people to build successful businesses. So since 2008, he’s been a certified EOS implementer. We’ll talk more about that. And he’s helped entrepreneurs and leadership teams at more than 60 privately held companies gain the traction necessary to achieve their shared vision. René, thanks so much for being here.

René: It’s my pleasure to be here, Chris. Thanks for the invitation.

Chris: Absolutely. So I also heard, I know this wasn’t in the intro, but you just got back from a 1,600 mile bike ride. Is that right?

René: That’s right. So one of my bucket list items has always been to cycle across the country. And we’ve been doing that to raise money for a charter school here in Chicago, North Lawndale College Prep. So last year we started in a story Oregon, finished in the Dakotas and this year we started where we left off and finished in Portland, Maine. So 24 days this summer it’s about 65 miles a day and it was an absolute blast. So it’s nice to combine two passions, one being education and the other one cycling.

Chris: That’s amazing. So no joke after work today, I’m going to a bike shop to buy my first road bike because I’m registered for a half Iron Man. And all I’ve been doing to practice is the Peloton, you know, the home bike and stuff. So that’s been good for building muscle, but now I’ve got to get the real bike. So it’s, it’s great to be talking with you. We’ll have to catch up offline about that.

René: Okay. All right. Glad to help you spend money on cycling.

Chris: Perfect. So let’s go back to the intro. Looking back, is there anything in there that I missed or, or I guess would you say was kind of the, the biggest impact of all that experience in the restaurant industry?

René: The very to process. I mean, I learned early on that smiles don’t win and keep customers, great processes do. And so that’s what you need to really have consistency and that’s what you need to be able to scale your business.

Chris: I love that. And we didn’t pay you to say that either. When I was a kid, my dad had a deli, a small deli that was on the first floor of a kind of a corporate park, corporate center. And I remember being in there and we’d get the huge lunch wave of people coming in. And that was just scratching the surface of my own restaurant experience. So I’m curious from your standpoint, how did the operations of those different brands, different franchises differ? Do they all have the same kind of operating procedures or what did you see from company to company?

René: So I think one of the things that, that every company puts together was a standard operating procedures manual. And I remember the one that we had at Pizza Hut was at least that thick. And whenever I would walk in to one of our restaurants, whether it was at Pizza Hut or at Arby’s or whatever if I saw something that wasn’t quite right, I’d ask, you know, is this the right way to do it? Then someone would just look at you with a blank stare. And I said, where might we find the answer to that? And you know, the person would go white cause they knew what was coming and they would say in the operating manual. I said, yeah, the operating manual. Can we just open that up and take a look at it? And usually the operating manual was kept in the manager’s office on a top shelf.

René: He needed a step ladder to reach it. And when he opened it, the binder would actually crack, which told me that no one had ever looked at it. And so I think the, the problem with a lot of these processes are they’re way too detailed and people miss the simplicity of process in terms of major steps that have to happen in the right sequence for something to work well. And getting people to understand that at a high level is important first to create some context so they know where they need to go for the details. Does that make sense? So think about your Deli experience. I’ll bet taking a, a customer who walked through the door from when they ordered to when they got their food was pretty simple in terms of major steps. And I’ll bet there might’ve been that much detailed behind every one of them. But things fall apart because we don’t follow the major steps in the right sequence. Does that make sense?

Chris: Absolutely. I love that. So just simplifying it down to the big picture process that everyone needs to understand instead of getting muddied in the details. So I’m curious, you know, people have heard of or seeing those big operations manuals that sit on the shelves and the cracked binders. And then on the flip side, you, you talk training and onboarding and getting people up to speed. So in the restaurant world or in the franchise world, how were those two married? Did everyone read the manual or what was that process like?

René: Well, so there it’s, it’s breaking it down to, you know, what portion of this really is the training piece and how can you take that training and simplify that. Because boy, there’s an awful lot of things that, that someone needs to learn and understanding what the timeframe is and breaking it down and establishing benchmarks. And so I remember we used to tell restaurant managers that you’re training program just to learn the basics was six weeks. That was pretty intensive. And keeping someone on track for a six-week program just to learn the basics. And that didn’t mean that you had mastered the skill. That was just learning the basics. And so I think that that’s one of those things with, with every one of these processes is if you can’t give you, it’s not clear and simple in your own mind. It’s really easy to get off track. So s a six-week program that turns into a 36-week program if it’s finished, at all. And usually, we got off with a pretty good start and then it all went off the rails. And the first few weeks,

Chris: Well I want to dig a little deeper into this because I’m so interested. Did, did you just give them the six-week basics, and then they hit the ground running, or was there kind of a cadence of ongoing training or feeling things back? Little by little.

René: Yeah. So you know, assigning someone to really be that person’s mentor and it was the next level. It was the boss then who was really responsible for making sure that people were applying what they learned in base, in the basic training piece of it. And then how do you take that and really start optimizing it? Cause there’s always finer points, but someone’s gotta take the point for that. And this leads us to the all important role of being a great boss because at the end of the day, that’s the bosses job, right? It’s, hey, we have processes. Are they really followed by all vs. followed by some.

Chris: I can’t wait to get into this. All right, this is so relevant. So, so before we do, and talk more about the book and being a great boss, I’m curious what made you make the transition back in 2008 from the restaurant world into this entrepreneur coaching kind of world?

René: Yeah, so very simply, I just was absolutely burned out. I spent, you know, 30 some years in an industry that you know, I loved and I learned a lot and it was exciting. And then it got to the point where it just was not exciting and rewarding anymore. In fact, I sometimes I joke and I say, if I had to take a look at one more labor cost analysis or food cost analysis, I’d rather die about a window. Fortunately my house only has one floor, so this wouldn’t have been too bad at damage. But I was really, as I peel back the onion on having been in the industry and just trying to rediscover my passion, it was always about building teams and that’s what I love to do. And then I realized that, you know, when I got started in, in a, in restaurants, what got me excited at the very beginning was this was an opportunity for me to surround myself with people that I really wanted to work with that had the same goal and same objectives that I had for the restaurant. And this was coming right out of right out of college. So think about it, how many people would get to come out of college and start putting a team of people together that they want to work with?

René: Not a lot of people. So let’s say you’re in this position where you’re going, hey, this is where I get a chance to work with people that I really want to work with. And so it was a really natural transition for me to move from what I had done in restaurants to rediscovering what I really love to do, which was develop teams to then being able to apply that in the wonderful world of EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system and helping other leadership teams do what I really liked doing. So it started out as always being about people and that’s kind of where I am today. It’s still all about working with people, specifically the bosses because I remember when I became a manager, no one handed me a manual or a book and said, look, just read this and this will give you a pretty good idea of what you need to do.

René: It was more of a, hey, you were pretty good at cooking pizzas and waiting tables so we’re going to promote you and you get to run your own restaurant. And it’s like, what? Baking pizza and waiting tables that doesn’t qualify me to do anything other than what I’ve been doing. So you were kind of thrown into the deep end and you had to sort it out. Fortunately I sorted it out, but that was kind of the inspiration, you know, for the book that Gino and I wrote together. What, what kind of advice would you share with people based on real world experience? And so that’s the basis of the book.

Chris: You’ve converted it out enough to help other people sort it out. Now

René: Well, I’m still sorting it out, this is a lifelong journey, by the way..

Chris: All right. So see, when you made that leap, you had all this, you know, franchise restaurant experience and then you found yourself in this small business entrepreneur world. What was something you took for granted in your past life that you showed up to the first client you had in the EOS world and you said, wow, how is this missing? How do you not do this? There must have been some of those obvious things.

René: The one piece is the importance of coaching and developing people and how little training is provided to bosses around, around that piece. And so you know, when you look at how organizations give people feedback it’s usually here’s a way I, I see a lot of HR processes work and this is a bit of an exaggeration and I’m going to admit that, but think about this. We hire you, we onboard you, and then we ignore you, ignore, you ignore, you ignore, you ignore or you get really mad and fire you. That’s how it works. And you know, we laugh. But I think that’s pretty close to the truth for a lot of organizations. And so when you think about it, we really don’t have meaningful conversations that are more future-based. They’re usually from what’s already happened and they’re usually only done until the end of the year.

René: And then it’s a formal sit down performance review that quite frankly, no one likes getting. And on the boss side, nobody likes giving. I’ve never said how many people in the room love doing annual performance reviews? I’ve never had anybody put their hands up. And it’s crazy. So it’s the vendor’s superstitious dance that we’ve been doing for decades hasn’t produced results. And it’s a standard operating procedure in many, many companies. So that’s insanity. So why wouldn’t we change it? And the reason we, we haven’t is, it’s hard. The concept is so simple, but boy, when you have to sit down and look somebody right in the eyes and talk about what’s really working and what’s not working, what are we going to do to get things back on track? And I love to have you give me some feedback as your boss. There aren’t too many people that are saying, I got it.

René: I’m ready to go. I’ve got everything I need to be able to have that kind of conversation.

Chris: And yet, I think it’s one of the most important things that you do as a boss or as a leader is having that valve, you know, opening the valve of that communication and having productive conversations. Right?

René: Yeah. And often what keeps us from doing that is as a blossom. And I can tell you this from experience we go into the role terrified for one thing. And one of the things we’re terrified with is that our people, our direct reports are gonna figure out that we really don’t know what we’re doing.

René: That’s my practical experience. So I’m kind of terrified they’re gonna find out that I’m a bit of a fraud. And man I got to project that. So you want to portray this image as being, being invulnerable and having all the answers and really knowing what the heck you’re supposed to be doing. And it’s all crazy. I mean, none of it’s true. I think you have to really be successful, you gotta be willing to be, to be humble. You gotta be willing to be vulnerable and you gotta wonder what thinking I’m here to build trust and this has gotta be a quid pro quo. It has to work for my direct report and it has to work for me. And you as a boss, you’ve got to be willing to take that first step. So a humble is sitting down with someone and saying, Chris, this is going to be a wonderful relationship moving forward.

René: Right? But I just got to tell you if you’re looking to me for all the answers, I’m not the guy and I’m really counting on you to help me gain the knowledge that I need. Cause I know you know a lot more about what’s going on here that maybe I know just stepping into this role. So I want to get that off the table right away. And it’s the willingness to be vulnerable. Hey, you know, I probably had a little bit of a reputation of I’ve made some mistakes. Especially with, with direct reports, when you finally make up your mind that, you know, I’ve been kind of a so-so boss, but I want to be great. You got to realize, hey, I got fess up here. I’ve done some things that really weren’t the right things. If I had it to do over again, I would’ve done it differently or said it differently. You got to sit down with someone and say, look, if I could wind back the clock, I wish I would have handled this differently. Boy, you just gain immediate trust when you’re willing to do that. But I don’t think that there’s a lot of bosses that are willing to do that. That’s an important first step. And then you’ve got to say, look, can we get this behind us?

René: Can we put this behind us? You know, so we’re going to forgive each other and we’re going to move forward because our relationship now on a go-forward basis is all about building trust and helping each of each of us get better. I want to help you get better, and I’m hoping that you’re going to help me get better. By being open and honest, right? And man, the relationship changes like that. And if it doesn’t, then you gotta ain’t got to ask yourself, well, gee, I was willing to bury the hatchet and I’m willing to take these steps. So you’ve gotta be willing to stay that course for awhile, but at some point, you know, you realize that the relationship probably isn’t going to work and then you got it. It’s a different conversation.

Chris: So I’m curious, here we’re at a growing company, my own company, and we started off by doing these kinds of check-ins, quarterly check ins with everyone having these conversations. But at some level you start to have managers that are doing check-ins with their team. How important is it for the senior management to still be checking in with all of the employees? Or do you rely on your team leaders and management for that?

René: Yeah, you do rely on your team leaders and managers for that. But we use a really simple tool called the People Analyzer. And I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, with that particular tool, but you heard the phrase that, you know, Jim Collins coined, “right people, right seats” in the tool that People Analyzer, you know, we work with clients and help them really discover what their core values are. And so each one of those core values we just placed along the top of our people analyzer. And that gives us a definition of the right people because these are people that value what we value most. And you just do a very simple rating system. And then the other piece of the people analyzer is rights. See, so there’s the person sitting in the seat that’s performing the function. Do they get it wanted added?

René: The best way to do it, you can put a very simple spreadsheet together that also lists employee names and you just have an evaluation that you make sure is consistently applied. You end up with a nice little HR scorecard, so to speak, that gives you a sense of do we have the right people in the right seats? So here’s another thing I have learned that when you think about as bosses, where do we spend most of our valuable time as it relates to people? We spend the least amount of our valuable time with the people who are really the right people in the right seats, right? The story that I share is when I, when I first got promoted to an area manager job, I had lunch with my father alone. And so jack asked me, so, hey, you know, you’re in this area manager position and you’re working with eight store managers now, that’s pretty exciting. You stopped me, ask you what? You spend most of your time with your best people or your not so good people. And I said, well, I said, easy when I spent all my time with my not so good people because it’s my job to make them really good. And he said well I wouldn’t want to work for you.

René: And I say, you wouldn’t want to work for me. He goes, yeah, because I’d be one of your best people and I never see you. So what’s set it for me? What are you going to do to make me better, to help me get to the next level? And then I realized that I was applying my time in all the wrong places.

Chris: So let me ask you a tough question. So you go through the people analyzer and you’ve got some not so high scores. You know what, what if you see people that they’re, they’re not a culture fit or, or they don’t have the capacity to do the thing. How do you handle that and how quickly?

René: Well, so think about it. With values, right? You’re looking for behaviors that either support or take away from core values. And it’s a behavior that I think is something that the person has to take ownership for. And so you’re just simply asking you know, here’s what I observed. So firsthand, you know, first person observations, I’ve seen you do these things, I need to get some acknowledgement from you and then I need you to understand why it’s important and do you see if it’s important and get a little acknowledgement and you say, well, what are you going to do differently to convince me and everyone else on the team that you really want to be here? So it’s not only convincing me, but you probably have damaged some relationships with some peers and maybe some of some other people in the organization. What are you going to do differently? That’s usually all it takes. Someone said, well, you know, that’s reasonable. You know, I can do that and I’ll make a conscious effort and I will convince you that I really want to be here. We’re done. Every once in a while, having that conversation, someone will say, you know what, I really don’t want to change behavior and they’ll self select out and they’ll do it quickly.

Chris: Well, I know it’s been addressed. I’m curious, I don’t know if you recommend this, but when we filled out that tool and others like it, I’ve had a couple of my leaders all fill out the tool and then we kind of compare notes and we say, did you have any negatives? Did you have any negatives? Is that a standard practice?

René: Well, so we, you know, and having these conversations, this tool is the basis for having that quarterly conversation. And yes, you know, we ask people to do a bit of a self assessment. Interestingly enough, a lot of times people are more critical of themselves than the boss would be. It’s a great, great start to a conversation, you know and that helps do a little bit of course correcting, right? But then sometimes it’s just a blind spot for someone. They, they just don’t see it. And I think, you know, it moves the boss to help them see it and why it’s important. And when you think about the rating system, it’s not like you have to walk on water. Nothing about it says always. I mean, we’re only human for heaven sakes, right? So I’ll plus just means most of the time. It’s not always. And a minus means, you know, seldom I know, like hardly ever now and then plus minus or, or you know, plus minuses. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don’t. You can certainly work on those.

Chris: Okay. So, so obviously we all want, plus as across the board and as a boss, you want to hold people accountable for the results and expectations, but you also don’t want to be a micromanager. So what do you recommend for kind of carefully towing that line?

René: Yeah, so this is where I think having good metrics is definitely helpful. And then the other thing about accountability is I don’t think there’s any such thing as holding someone accountable. If you have to do that as a boss, that to tell you something that, you know, I’m constantly having to check in with this person to see if they’re in fact doing what they said they were going to do. It’s exhausting. It’s exhausting. I think what you need to do is, is to be very, very clear with someone on the core values and what acceptable behavior is and isn’t. And then on the, on the seat side of it, it’s really asking them, do you get it, want it to have the capacity to do it? And that’s another longer conversation. But are you really in the right seat that you genuinely get it? We’ve been working together now for a year and I’m starting to wonder whether you really get this role, right? Which is a little different than capacity. The other thing is do you really want the role? This is one of the most common issues. A lot of times people just don’t want the role, but the rating on GWC isn’t pluses and plus minuses. It’s either yes or no.

René: And there should be nothing wrong if you’re kind of on the fence on it or even questioning the rating, always go with a lower rating because it will generate a great conversation. So I just want to share one with you. This actually happened just recently. So I have my quarterly conversation with my assistant. Okay. And part of this thing that I went through was applying five leadership practices and five management practices. And I wanted to get some really good feedback from my assistant. Now a lot of people will tell people, if your boss ever asks you for feedback, open and honest, don’t give it because it would be career suicidal. My assistant and I have a little better relationship than that. So one of the leadership practices is letting go of the vine.

René: So you’re talking about micromanaging now. So letting go of the vine and I checked that box, self-evaluation for myself. I checked it as a no.

René: And she was getting ready to give me some feedback. She checked that no. As well as we thought we were going to have a quarterly conversation, I’m fessing up that I’m really not letting go and she’s frustrated because I’m not letting go. Don’t you think that was an interesting conversation.

Chris: Yeah. And so what a great way to bring up the topic. Is there a timeline that you say fill this out a week in advance of us meeting or something like that.

René: Yeah. So you know, you want to give people adequate notice, but I encourage folks to schedule these conversations with rec direct reports well in advance. So at least a quarter out you’re giving, getting everybody on your calendar. If you’re using outlook or whatever tool you use, you’re, you’re scheduling these meetings well in advance. So they know when, when the meeting is going to be, you know, when it’s going to be. So you both come in and prepare for the discussion and it’s not about a rehash of everything that happened in 13 weeks. It’s, hey, where are we right now and where are we going? That’s the conversation that we want to have.

Chris: Yeah. Well, so we talked about, being humble and having these open conversations and frequent check-ins and up the hard topics and evaluating your people. What are some of the areas that are the traps that people become bad bosses are, I’m sure you talk about these a lot in the book.

René: So the list of bad bosses you know, I think it started with what we’ve talked about, but I think a lot of times people when they think of themselves and their status in an organization and I think status is, is important for a lot of people and it’s not status in terms of things. It’s just status and serve in terms of your sense of self-worth. Right. so if you’ve been in an organization for a long time and you’re looking for increasing levels of responsibility or self-worth, a lot of times people look at that say, Hey, I’ve been here a long time, I should get promoted.

René: So they’re not real careful about what they’re asking for. So they feel like, hey, the only way for me to get additional responsibility and recognition is I need to get to that next level. I need to be a boss. I want to be a manager, I want to be a director or whatever the heck it is. So they don’t even know what they’re signing up for. And so back in the day, this is a little embarrassing, but I wanted to be an area manager because area managers got to drive a brand-new car. A company car. That was one of the perks. Yeah. And that wasn’t the only reason, but I thought, man, this, this will get me out of, you know, out of having to do what I’ve been doing for a year and a half. It gives me this position I’ll have, I’ll get higher pay, I’ll get this company car, I’m going to get all these things and I’ll probably have to work fewer hours.

René: The exact opposite happened. I ended up working more hours. It was a lot more complicated. After about a week, the car lost all of its glitter. This is just a tool to get me from one place to the next. And now you’re sitting in a position where you’re going, wow, you know, this responsibility of having to provide leadership and management and create this culture of accountability is something that, man, this is hard. It sounded simple, but man, this is a lot harder than I thought. And that’s one of the pitfalls right off the get go. Be careful what you ask for cause you’re going to get it.

René: And I think that’s where an organization, if they’re looking to develop people and they’re trying to groom people for that next level to be really, really clear on what someone is signing up for. Because I think as you move up in an organization, and we abbreviate that whole boss thing  as LMA, leadership plus management equals accountability. That accountability of LMA becomes more and more important and takes more and more time that further up the organization you go.

Chris: So in the book you mentioned the difference, the distinction between leadership and management. So could you zoom in on that for just a second and outline how they’re different?

René: Yeah. So when you think about leadership, it’s all about working on the business. It’s about establishing a clear direction. It’s about working or it’s more about thinking and it’s also providing the tools, right?

René: So on the business providing clear direction, tools, and thinking. And when you think about those things and think about direction for a minute, as a leader, a leader is the person who not only conveys the message but is the message. So it’s about the greater good, but it’s also creating a compelling vision of where we’re going. Why is this important? How are we going to get there? And I think that’s something that anybody who’s a boss has to understand and really do a good job of following. Right? So on the business, am I spending time thinking, think about just that little bit about thanking you would say, wow, that’s a no brainer. But how many leaders really take the time to slow down long enough to think. So the famous quote from Henry Ford, you know, thinking is the hardest thing there is to do. That’s why so few people engage in it, but just take it and we call that a clarity grade.

René: Taking time to just, you know, restore your self-confidence and think about your life and where you are in your professional development. Looking at the bigger picture and all the people that report to you, or are looking to you for that kind of guidance. You know? So that’s leadership. When you think about management, well now you’re working in the business and that’s all about expectations and communication. And it’s about doing, right? So working in the business and think about expectations and accountability all accountability starts with clear expectations. As long as your expectations are a two-way street. So I’m clear on my direct reports, expectations of me and vice versa. They’re completely clear on my expectations of them. As long as you keep expectations clear, you’re doing a good job with that. You’ll never have to fire anybody because they’ll leave because they can’t meet your expectations.

René: I have a boss that called me into his office one day and he said, how do you think you’re doing? And I thought that dangerous question. And I thought, why? Why am I here? You see the list every week, you know, the top performers, I’m always at the top of the list. It’s a lot. Think I’m doing pretty damn well, you know how do you think I’m doing you guys, I think you’ve been a real disappointment. He even put a few expletives in there, but he hit me right between the eyes. He said, you know, you’ve been a bit of a disappointment because you haven’t met my expectations as like, well wait a minute. I find number one or two on the list and there’s all these other people, how could you say, I’m not meeting your expectations?

René: And he said, because my expectations of you are here and my expectations of them are there. They’re meeting mine, they’re doing all they can, but I have a much higher expectations for you. And then I realized he cared more about me, more than I cared about me. First of all, it was upsetting. So I thought, oh, wait a minute. I was a little ticked off to be honest. It’s like, well, wait, what, what’s he doing? Calling me out it. But I realized in my heart of hearts that I had been skating. I was just getting by, was getting to be too easy and you know, that provided just the motivation I needed to say, look, you’ve got to dial it up. You know, if you really want to be here and beyond the theme, you got to be a lot better or you can do that. And if he wouldn’t have had had that conversation with me, I sometimes wonder where would I be today? Would I still be in some organization just skating by?

Chris: Yeah. So being a great boss is about bringing up those hard conversations and pushing people, right?

René: Yeah. Well, getting back to that management thing, so we talked about expectations. Let’s talk about communication for a minute. You know, George Bernard Shaw said that the problem with communication is the illusion that has actually happened. Kind of laugh at that. I think you know that that’s right on because most of the time we’re not communicating. We just make assumptions and we do it all the time. It’s a human condition. And the assumptions that we make are usually not correct. And to get clarity, I think what a lot of, a lot of times what happens is it’s safer to make the assumption than to test the assumption. And you miss the assumption that’s when you find out whether you’re really on base and way off. And more often than that, you’re way off. And I speak from personal experience.

Chris: Well, you’ve had a lot of great experience[s]. And so as we wrap this up, I’m curious, what’s one takeaway or one lesson you’d want to leave the audience with that, you know, anyone out there that’s struggling to try to learn how to truly be a great boss?

René: Well, I would start, you know, this sounds a little self-serving, but I would start by reading the book. And then the other thing too is I do workshops on a quarterly basis where we get people in the, but I think you know, that that one little bit of advice is as a boss, you’re not in it alone. And I would tap the pure group, people who are in this same position that you’re in and ask them, how, how are you doing? How are we doing? And you’re going to find, as I’ve found in doing these workshops that whether you’re the owner of a business or you just got promoted into a supervisory job all the issues are the same kinds of issues. All the issues are the same kind of issues. It’s the organization’s clear on its goal, have we asked our people if they’re clear on theirs, right? Cause there’s, there’s gotta be some commonality there and you know, and I think, you know, it’s just a huge, huge part of realizing that hey, we’re just human and no one’s perfect and you can’t stop a truck. You know, making sure that the circle stay connected, that we’re really doing a good job of staying on the same page with each other.

Chris: Yeah. Well that’s great. I love what you said about, if you have to hold someone accountable, it’s exhausting. You know, the accountability should be the end result of proper leadership, proper management, open communication, clear expectations. So Renee, I, I think that the content of the book sounds fantastic. And for anyone that’s interested in learning to be a great boss, definitely check out the book. Where can people find you if they’d like to connect more with you?

René: Yeah. So you can contact me via email. It’s René, rene@tractionprocess.com. So shoot me an email. I actually respond to my emails. I’m happy to take anyone’s questions.

Chris: Perfect. Well, René, thank you so much for being here and contributing to the podcast and I appreciate all the advice. And for everyone else, this is Process Makes Perfect, and we hope you check out the next episode. We’ll see you next time.

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