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Season 02, Episode 23

How To Correctly Price Your Products And Services

with Founder & CEO of ProfitWell, Patrick Campbell

About the Episode

In this episode, Patrick Campbell, Founder & CEO of ProfitWell, talks about how you should first price your services, how you should make sure not to leave money on the table, and how you should think about upsells and maximizing the value of a customer over time. He points out the metrics that you should be watching to understand your customers and make strategic decisions based on the data that your customers show you.

ProfitWell is the industry-standard software for helping companies like Atlassian, Autodesk, Meetup, and Lyft with their monetization (through Price Intelligently) and retention strategies. ProfitWell also provides a turnkey solution that powers the subscription financial metrics for over fourteen thousand subscription companies (it’s free and plugs right into your billing system). Prior to ProfitWell Patrick led Strategic Initiatives for Boston based Gemvara and was an Economist at Google and the US Intelligence community.

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Full Transcript

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I want to kind of contextualize monetization for a second, for most folks, because a lot of people think it’s like, it’s just the number, right? Like, Oh, what’s, should it be a hundred dollars, $150, $102? Like, what should it be? Right. And actuality, if you really think about your business, it doesn’t matter if you’re a nonprofit or retail company, a SAS company doesn’t matter what you are. You’ve created some sort of value. And because we don’t trade goats for wheat anymore, you’re basically saying like, Hey, this value is worth this much. Right? And there’s all these things that influence that value, who you sell to what you sell, how you position it. Um, the actual price can, can, you know, you know, affect that as well. And so I think that the big thing is when you start from that premise, you start to realize like one, there’s a lot of different things that go into your monetization

Chris:

What’s up everyone, I’m Chris Ronzio, founder and CEO of Trainual, and this is Process Makes Perfect. As always, we’re talking with experts in process creation, automation and delegation, basically the people that know how to make business easier. You just heard Patrick Campbell. And this episode is all about the process of pricing. Patrick’s the founder and CEO of profit. Well, the industry-standard software for helping companies like Atlassian and Autodesk meetup and lift with their pricing and retention strategies, ProfitWell also provides a turnkey solution that powers the subscription financial metrics for over 14,000 subscription businesses like Trainual. You will, it’s free and it plugs right into your billing system. So check it out prior to profit. Well, Patrick led strategic initiatives for Boston based Gemvara, and he was an economist at Google. And for the U.S. intelligence community. What I love about this episode is that whether you run a subscription business or any other kind of company, Patrick talks about how you should first price your services, how you should make sure not to leave money on the table, how you should think about upsells and maximizing the value of a customer over time. And just the metrics that you should be watching to understand your customers and make strategic decisions based on the data that your customers show you. So it’s a great episode, and I know you’ll love it.

Chris:

Hey, everyone, welcome to Process Makes Perfect. I’m your host, Chris Ronzio. And as you heard in the intro today, we’re talking with a friend of mine, Patrick Campbell, Patrick you’ve gotta be one of the smartest people I know. So I’m so excited to have you on here.

Patrick:

I don’t know about that. You’re setting the expectations really high. I just noticed you got the Boston Harbor behind you. 

Chris:

I do 

Patrick:

Are you trying to convince yourself you’re in New England when you’re in Arizona, right?

Chris:

So, so, you know, brother lives in Boston after I grew up in, uh, I was the best man at his wedding, and he gave me this to take a little piece of Boston back here to Arizona. So that’s awesome. 

Patrick:

Very cool. 

Chris:

Well, today we’re going to talk a lot about pricing. So this’ll be the process of pricing, what you do at your company. And I want people to get a little background on you because in the SAS world, I feel like everyone knows who you are, but if you don’t have a subscription product, this guy is like a hidden gem or around the world, and everybody needs to follow what you’re doing. So why don’t you just give us some background? I know you started off as like a secret agent in the government or something like that. So why don’t you start there? 

Patrick:

Oh man. Yeah, well, yeah, sort of, sort of. So yeah, I started, I started my career. I worked in U S intelligence, um, in DC. Um, it’s, it’s actually where I got the best training I’ve ever gotten. So if you want to go deep on that, as much as I can, that’d be cool. Um, and then, um, I worked at Google after that. Um, and basically I was an entry level Intel analyst at the NSA. And then I was like a sales, sales ops guy at Google and basically both places I was taking data. And, you know, my background is in econometrics and math and basically taking a bunch of data, applying models to it and trying to find some sort of outcomes. So at NSA, um using data to find bad guys and gals at Google using data to find more money. Um, and interestingly enough, using the same models for both, which is really interesting.

Patrick:

Um, and then about eight years ago, I started a company called ProfitWell and, and as it was kind of alluded to we’re in the business of helping subscription companies with revenue automation. So we have a free subscription product that you plug into your subscription, your billing system, and you get access to all of your MRR, your churn, all the data you need. And right now it’s used by about 20% of the entire market, which is cool. Um, and the way we make money is we use that data to then build products, to help produce your cancellations and helped optimize your pricing and things like that. And so we’re, we’re in the business of taking data and then solving problems that are better solved by data versus like you as a human. Um, if that makes sense. And yeah, it’s been, it’s been a fun ride so far and it’s been, been quite the journey.

Chris:

So quick plug for Profit Well, if anybody out there is processing revenue through a regular credit card kind of processing system, hook your business up to Profit Well, because this thing is like the dashboard of my dreams that I’ve always wanted, you know, I would be in conferences or read books and everybody says, you’ve got to have KPIs and dashboards and they’ve gotta be visible so you can run your business on them. And for years I struggled to like connect Google sheets to these weird tools. And until I found your software, I’ve never had that kind of dashboards. So thank you for that. If people don’t have a subscription business, do you have any recommendations for them? Like what, what else could they do?

Patrick:

Um, well it’s just depends on the type of business, right? There’s a couple of like businesses that are popping up that are, um, uh, the name I’m blanking. There’s a couple of them that are built for eCommerce companies specifically. Um, and then there’s, um, I think the biggest thing is just start, start small. I think that if you’re not used to data, and data is only as useful as you use it, right. We were just talking about before this, you know how you’re like, Oh, we’re seeing adjustments and this or that or these other things. And that’s because you’re actually using the data and you’re making adjustments based on the data. So a lot of folks who just get enamored with graphs and it’s like the graphs aren’t there for the sake of being graphs, they’re there to like help you. Right. So just start small, even if it’s in a spreadsheet and what ends up happening is, you know, you’ll start small and then deal, ask more questions, you need more data.

And then eventually you’ll seek out the right type of tool, whether it’s a generic BI tool or something specific, like ProfitWell and so on and so forth. 

Chris:

So I’m curious for you, how long have you had the business? You said eight years. 

Patrick:

Yeah. So we originally were called price intelligently because the only product we had was this pricing product. Um, and then we evolved into having multiple products specifically for subscription businesses. So we changed the name, um, never changed your name. It’s the worst thing you can do? Um, probably not the worst, but it was definitely really annoying. Um, cause there’s some folks who have context of our entire life cycle. So the story’s a little bit different to them. Whereas some folks they just learned about us through ProfitWell and it’s one of those things where it’s like, Oh, like, you know, this is the story we’re trying to tell now. So it’s been, it’s been a fun learning experience the past 18 months when we kind of officially changed our name. 

Chris:

So you had a bunch of different products and has, has your business model changed over the years? Because I think there’s probably lessons in that, on how people adapt and offer more services or fewer services. How did you approach it?

Patrick:

Yeah, so we found out really early on and I think this is really good advice for any business it, without any problem, big, like the question that you just asked or even small, it’s like breaking it down to, it’s almost the sum of its parts. And for us, like we broke down like our constraints and one of our big constraints is the number of logos in our space subscriptions. Um, it’s, it’s not very high. Right. So we have, um, you know, actually I wonder if, you know, I think if you’ve seen a talk where I ask this, so don’t cheat, um, or tell me if you could cheat, but uh, how many subscription companies do you think are in the world right now? Also like SAS, all that kind of stuff. I think I’d be cheating.

Chris:

Can I guess, yeah, go for it. I would say 50,000.

Patrick:

Yeah. So it’s somewhere between probably a hundred and 150,000 total. Um, but the thing is most people think millions, Oh, there’s millions of subscription companies and it’s like, no, that’s eCommerce, eCommerce has millions of potential customers. So we’re in a low logo Tam, but the revenue on the subscription companies it’s like exponential. And so we changed our business model of knowing, you know, we need high LTV, lifetime value. And so how do you get high lifetime value? You can sell multiple products. Um, in addition to that, you get to a world of pay for performance, uh, which allows you to kind of push things, push things forward. So, yeah, it’s changed a bit. Um, I think what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to like double down on a couple of our products right now, get them to a really good place before we like expand even further. Okay.

Chris:

So I want to spend time talking about how you use the data to influence your decisions, but it was too good to pass by. You said at the beginning that you had the best training of your life as a U.S. Intelligence training. So can you touch on it briefly? Like, what was that experience like?

Patrick:

Yeah, I think that large organizations and the government is like one of the largest organizations. I think that they realize how important training is. So we get, we, we as like entrepreneurs and as like business builders, like we’re, we’re about 70 people. Um, you know, so just to give you some context, but even before this, and then I’ve been involved in larger organizations, obviously, like we get into this mindset of like, Oh no, no, no, don’t worry. Like, they’ll just learn it on the job. They’ll just learn it by sitting next to the other person or whatever. But I think what ends up happening is like, we don’t realize like how much time that wastes and how much like misalignment happens because of that. And so, uh, what I really appreciated about having, you know, the intelligence community is one of my first jobs was they have a really clear training program.

They’re like, here are the milestones, here’s what you gotta do. And I think that for most businesses, it’s probably overkill. You should have something in between these two pieces, but what I just really appreciated is they focused on not only like a rigorous program, but also it was very much focused on like how to think, not like, do not do this, do that. It was more like, Hey, this is our philosophy on this. This is how you should think about these types of problems. And then let you go off and do things. And there are of course, things of like, especially around the legal stuff, as you can imagine where it’s like, you’re not allowed to do this. You can’t do this. This is illegal, these types of things. But most of it was very like teaching you how to think, which I think is the best type of training. Um, you know, even if it’s an expense policy, like, Hey, like, this is how we think about our expenses here. Here’s some like specific rules, but like everything else is, you know, use your best judgment. Cause you hire smart people. You want to enable them. You don’t want to constrict them. 

Chris:

It’s like a filter for decision-making. Not all the answers. I remember going through a, I went to a Ted event like eight years ago or something. Right. Probably right around when you started a ProfitWell and I remember sitting in the audience, and they said that we’re moving away from a time of needing to know the answers and into a time of needing to know how to find the answers. And it’s like, you can Google anything and that’s where the future is headed. So as long as you’re resourceful and you’ve got the skills and the intelligence to do that, you can find answers. So I thought that was really cool. Um, all right, well, thanks for sharing that. So let’s get into pricing. Whether, people that are listening have a subscription business, a services business, an eCommerce business, they sell products, whatever it is. Um, pricing is one of the most pivotal things, [the] biggest decisions in business like this can make or break your business of whether you can sustain yourself. So when someone’s just starting, how do they set a price? Do they ask the customers? Do they copy their competitors? How do you start? 

Patrick:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I think I’m going to take a quick step back because I think that, um, I want to kind of contextualize monetization for a second, for most folks, because a lot of people think it’s like, it’s just the number, right? Like, Oh, what’s, should it be a hundred dollars, $150, $102? Like, what should it be? Right. And actuality, if you really think about your business, it doesn’t matter if you’re a nonprofit or retail company, a SAS company doesn’t matter what you are. You’ve created some sort of value. And because we don’t trade goats for wheat anymore, you’re basically saying like, Hey, this value is worth this much. Right? And there’s all these things that influence that value, who you sell to, what you sell, how you position it, the actual price can, can, you know, affect that as well. And so I think that the big thing is when you start from that premise, you start to realize like one, there’s a lot of different things that go into your monetization, but to like, what is the best way to get the price?

Well, it’s to go to the people you think you’re supposed to sell to and ask them in the right way. And the right way is important, like where their willingness to pay is. And I think that’s a really big thing because everyone wants this like secret roundabout way to like divide this number by that number and figure out their price point when it’s as simple as going to your customers and asking them questions like, well, here’s the product, like, you know, tell me about it. Right. And not leading the witness and having them like, talk about their needs and their wants, and then saying like, okay, so you’re familiar with the product, you know, at what point is it way too expensive that you would never consider purchasing it, and they’ll fumble around, they’ll give you an answer. And then it will, at what point is it, you know, a great deal that you’ll just like buy it today, right?

And then if you do that across like even 20 people, you start to get a feel for, why am I a $10 product am my a hundred dollar products in my thousand dollar product. And then if you get into doing like a bigger survey of more and more data and you follow some statistical best practices in this type of stuff, you can get more precision in that number, but it’s not rocket science. And I think that the thing to think about is your costs and your competitors don’t matter because your costs like your customer doesn’t care about your costs, they care about their costs, right. And your competitors. You’re assuming that they’ve done their homework when I guarantee you, they haven’t done their homework. Um, and you’re also assuming that you’re selling the exact same product to the exact same type of customer, which in some cases is true, like very, very competitive markets, but oftentimes we overestimate how competitive of markets are, are actually.

Patrick:

And so what we recommend doing is, you know, do this research and then use competitive data as well as cost data, as you know, almost like secondary data as well. But that’s kind of the shortest rambling answer to your question there, basically. 

Chris:

Okay. So you ask your customers, you try not to lead them. Do you, do you feel like customers that want to buy or in that position would be biased? Like did they try to give you cheap feedback so that you’ll set a cheap price? 

Patrick:

Yeah. So I think that, um, what’s really interesting is that this is, this is the power of like sample size, right? So this is why, so there’s two things. One, this is why you ask ranged questions. And if we were doing a true like pricing survey, we’d ask a couple of extra questions as well to get what’s called an elasticity curve, which we can go deeper on if you want.

But basically, it’s a measure of if I change my price, like how many sales am I going to lose or gain? And so this, this is the power of, of, of, you know, the sample as well, because the range questions protect you a bit because we’re not trying to figure out like a really, really specific answer with only asking 20 people. We’re just trying to get the general range. Right. Um, but then the other thing you should be doing is you should be talking to your current customers. You should be talking to prospects and then talking to people who like are your target customer, but they’ve never heard of you. Um, I think that’s my favorite thing to do because when you start to look at that data, really what should happen is, is those people have never heard of you should be willing to pay the least.

And then all of a sudden your current customers should be willing to pay the most. Oftentimes it’s reverse because you’ve anchored your current customers to a price that you’ve never checked or studied. And so it’s too low because most of us we’re, you know, we’re scared that no one will buy things. So we price our products too low typically. And so when you do that research, you’ll, you’ll first not want to trust it. Cause you’re like, well, they’re only paying a hundred dollars. How can we raise our price to 500? Right. And also like, well, you’re probably not going to raise your price to 500 right away on those folks, but really you’ve been under priced for them for too, too long. 

Chris:

Yeah. So when you set a price and you’ve got something you’re ready to offer you without a doubt, we’ll get people that are, whether they’re commenting on ads or giving you feedback over the phone, there’ll be people that think it’s too expensive. So do you waiver from a price? Do you discount and just get more customers to have a bigger sample size? Or do you start to offer multiple products? Like at what point should someone, um, you know, resist versus accommodate? 

Patrick:

Yeah. That’s a deep question. I think that, so are you asking more around like, Hey, should we worry about defending our price or not? Or is it more like, yeah, I guess that’s kind of what you’re asking. Right. 

Chris:

I guess so. Yeah. Like, do you, do you discount from your price and if you do that enough, do people start to, you know, it’s like if I go to buy a car, I know I’m not going to pay the MSRP on the list because no one pays that, you know, so is it crazy? Do you have to reset that expectation? 

Patrick:

It depends on your market, right? I’m a big fan of, if you’ve done your homework, you should defend your price. Right. Um, and yes, discounts are a part of life. Like you might have to give like a 5-10% discount or something like that. Like I think those are okay because, you know, if your sales person has defended the wall, if you will, and this is the thing that’s going to get them over the edge, like great. But I would discount things like, um, you know, the onboarding fee, I would give a promotion, meaning like, Hey, we’ll give you priority support for free. So I can’t, I can’t discount the price, but I can give you this promotion. I would try all of those things before actually discounting the price. Because the thing is, is that in most industries, people, again, they know things cost money. Um, and, and we are like, Oh, we’re scared to talk about it.

We’re scared to like defend it because it’s like, Oh, we don’t want to talk about money. But the actuality is, is like, if they value the product, um, and you’ve put them through a trial, which is something, or you give them a 60-day out or all these things that, that hedge the bet of, of their decision making, it allows you to kind of like defend that price. Now the downside is if you discount too heavily, we found this pretty, pretty steadily is that if you discount beyond, um, you know, right around 30%, so 30% or more discounts, you start to run into a position where they’re really only buying because of the discount. And that means that your customer isn’t really ready like satisfaction is going to below. Um, you know, if you’re a subscription company there’s going to be churn, um, there’s just gonna be a whole host of things where these customers just aren’t really ready for prime time.

Um, and we see that a lot. Now it’s a couple of caveats retail products. Um, it’s, it’s a bit of a different game. Um, retail and eCommerce. Um, you know, you, you are eroding your brand when you discount, but sometimes like, that’s the only thing that gets people over the line. And so I would just really think about from a framework perspective, are we a discounting brand? Are we a luxury brand or premium brand? Um, if you’re a luxury premium brand, you, the discounts should be few and far between, you know, Herman Miller. They only discount twice a year. They do two sales a year. Right. I think like Tiffany’s and things like that. That’s what they do as well. Um, but if you’re a discount brand and like go nuts, right. And I think that you should still defend the value props, but, um, yeah. Keep things going. 

Chris:

I love how many levers you can pull with pricing. You know, there’s like you mentioned, there’s the, add-ons, there’s the free services. There’s promotions. There’s like coupons, there’s extended pay periods, you know, there’s so many things you can tweak. So there’s really a lot of, a lot of room to get creative. Um, you talked about price elasticity, willingness to pay. I think a question on a lot of people’s minds is how do I maximize, how do I not leave money on the table? So how do you offer something or, or price your services in a way that you’re capturing as much value as you can?

Patrick:

Yeah, I think it’s, um, one of the biggest mindsets to get into is there’s no perfect price, right? So it’s like, even, even if your price is at $500, there’s going to be people who only want to pay 490. There’s going to be people that are going to pay 525. Like, it’s one of those things where like, you’re going to be missing. You’re going to be overpriced for some, you’re going to be underpriced for others, but the secret is offering options. And this is why we like to say price and a value metric, which is, you know, it could be, this could be for e-commerce, but it also is mainly for like subscription companies where you price based on like the usage or the value they’re getting of some sort, because then it’s kind of like, well, you know, I don’t have to buy the 60 eggs.

Right. I can buy the 12 eggs with a six-pack or the 18 pack. Right. That goes into your packaging. Um, and I don’t have to like overpay, um, for, for too much. Right. And so I think that’s a really, really big thing. But in addition to that, um, also realize it’s a multi-game, right. That person comes in, they buy like the low priced, um, utility product from you. Um, all of a sudden it’s like, well, here’s this other luxury, like nice to have [a] product that we also have, they trust your brand now. So theoretically they can purchase more. Um, and in the world of subscriptions, it’s, you know, add-ons and things like that. And so I think those are the two things to really think about. Um, too many times we think, Oh, they purchase that’s it. Well, if you have a one-time purchase type company, you’ve got to have repeat purchases, or you’re gonna die.

Like, it’s just not going to work out. And if you’re a subscription business, if your average revenue per user, isn’t going up, um, you’re not taking advantage of that relationship that you have in, in a good way. Right. Um, you know, people get value. It’s okay to like ask for more money in exchange for that value. You just have to do it in the right way. 

Chris:

I don’t know if this is a trend anymore, but I remember seeing like Panera the sandwich shop had a store where you could just walk in and name your own price. I don’t know if you remember that, but it was like, you could pay whatever you wanted. It was like an experiment or a PR thing, but I’ve seen software products do that to like pay what you can or, you know, donate, buy us a coffee. Do you see that working anymore? Or, or is that kind of another experiment? 

Patrick:

Yeah, it’s an experiment in most places, but it’s typically very focused on, um, community type products. So those Panera stores, those were their like donation type ones. There was one in Boston actually for a long time. Um, they ended the experiment. Not because it wasn’t working, but because of some other issues, I can’t remember what exactly happened, but, um, yeah, you could walk in and you theoretically, they had suggested prices, but, um, basically they’d get you whatever. And I think that, like, it was all self serve on like the credit card machine and everything as well. So you didn’t even have to like [to] interact with someone. And it was mainly because you wanted, um, you know, if someone was down on their luck or, you know, homeless, or something and they needed food like it was a place that they could go.

And then if you were able to pay regular prices or more, you could do it, um, in software, we’ve seen this with like very like, um, association or industry, like type products, like very like open-source adjacent, I guess, is the best way to put it. It’s probably not the best way to put it. That’s jargony, but like very like, you know, products that are basically like, Oh, we’re part of the like Privacy Alliance, and we’re a privacy tracking product, you know, pay what you want. Right. I think that typically those really only work, um, when you offer some options. Right. So what Panera learned is it was failing until they were like, here’s the suggested total pay what you want based on that information. So you’ll see this with a lot of, um, nonprofits and like, um, associations where like, there’ll be like, Hey, donate either a one time. And here’s some suggestions, $100, $200 or subscription, $10 a month, $20 a month, et cetera. 

Um, if you just give someone like a blank, it’s the same thing. If I was just like, Hey, how much is this worth? It’s a terrible question to answer the human brain. It’s really hard for us to contextualize that question because we think about value in a spectrum. We know that this, you know, cup of coffee is worth less than this computer because I’ve had, you know, I’ve purchased coffee before I’ve purchased a computer before, but I can also like do a relative like value analysis quickly in my head to realize that now if I don’t sleep for four days, maybe that coffee increases in its value. Right. Um, you know, it’s one of those things that like, I rethink it based on my circumstance. And so that’s why you got to give people a little bit of an anchor or a little bit of a context so that they can, you know, provide, you know, or think about the value and the way that they need to.

Chris:

So, so then if a, if the blank is the worst thing you can do, and maybe the other end of the spectrum is like a million different products, all the cart, too many choices. What’s, what’s your recommendation in between? Like, do you have packages are only so many choices because then you’re getting people. Like, I remember when, when I was starting out, someone told me, you know, have like the three choices and the middle one’s the one you want people to like, like, is there the right number of packages or choices? 

Patrick:

Yeah. Good. Better. Best is not bad advice. It’s just like incomplete advice because here’s the thing you want, you want a line, enough packages or options to the personas that you have. Right. So if you’re a retail eCommerce product and you’re basically selling, um, you know, you’re selling, um, uh, you know, to, um, all kinds of buyers, like the hardcore, like let’s say, you’re the music shop and you’re selling to beginners and then hardcore enthusiasts all the way to professionals, right?

The offerings that you’ll have, as well as the price points are gonna vary a lot. Right. And you just have to be good at targeting those folks. So you’re going to ask me when I sign up for my first product, Hey, how do I, you know, how do, would you characterize you? And then you’re gonna have separate newsletters to go to those people right. In the world of subscriptions, right? Like, yeah. Maybe my pricing page is only going to have three or four options on it because it’s just going to get too confusing to try to show them 18 options. But I should have 18 options on the backend because I’ll learn about you. And then I’m just going to offer you a plan 17. You’re not going to know there’s 18 plans. You’re just going to see plan 17. Right. And this is for like mobile products.

I always recommend, listen, yeah, you’re going to have one price upfront, one or two prices up front just because the mobile screen is not big enough. But once you learn about that user, you should have all kinds of different upgrade paths. And this is why it’s important to like understand your user. Because again, not everyone’s going to want to pay that one amount. You’re going to be under price on some and overpriced on others. So you want multiple products and this is why like, you know, good, better, best it’s good advice. It’s just really, it should be good, better, best plus 17, right. Or however, you know, wide your customer base, that’s such good advice. 

Chris:

I’ve never heard that before, but it’s like the iceberg and the top of the water is like your marketing site with a couple of choices. And then it opens up great advice. Okay. We’re at the top of our time here. So let me end by just asking you a couple rapid-fire questions, whatever the first thing [that] comes to mind is go for it. Let’s go. Uh, what’s a brand you think has perfected its process. 

Patrick:

Oh, perfect.

Chris:

Someone you admire?.

Patrick:

I’ve been really into, uh, this is it’s. It’s probably not a good answer, but, um, uh, this guy named Scott Galloway, I don’t know if you’ve heard of him. He’s like a, he does this podcast with Kara Swisher, which is this big tech blogger. He is, he’s a New York on NYU. He’s been on a bunch of boards. He sold a bunch of companies like he, but he’s an NYU marketing professor and his brand is so good. He’s like the, you know, the prediction in tech guy. Like it, he’s so good. And he’s kind of like crafted that. And he’s got a really good following Matt Levine from Bloomberg, I guess I’m thinking of like, you know, content creators right now, both of their brands are really, really good because they’re really consistent and they kind of lead. They don’t get out of their lane. They don’t go comment on things that they know nothing about. They only comment on the things that they’re good at. So, yeah. I don’t know if that’s the best answer, but that’s what popped to mind first. So focused and consistent. 

Chris:

Who’s someone that’s, uh, that’s coached or mentored you?

Patrick:

I think if someone, you, everyone will know. Um, I think my, like my, my biggest mentor, I, uh, uh, I didn’t have, like, you know, I’m cautious. I’m getting too deep here. Not because I’m not, I don’t want to, but because we’re at the end of this, but like, I didn’t have a great childhood, um, you know, abused kid, all that kind of fun stuff. Um, and so I, uh, um, my teachers really became my mentors and I had a coach, a debate coach, uh, in, in forensics or speech, depending on the high school you went to. Um, and that was one of those people who like, kind of showed me that the world is larger. Um, this guy named Bill Hagan, um, showed me the world is larger than it actually is. Um, from a business perspective, um, I’ve learned a ton just from, I got this peer group of, um, the Wistia founders, the Help Scout founders, the Litmus founders who have just like taught me so much just by us getting together and all having giant therapy sessions. So just learning from one another. So yeah, hopefully, hopefully there’s some answers. 

Chris:

Yeah, no, that’s great. Debate. Coach makes a lot of sense now. Favorite book or podcast?

Patrick:

Um, I read High Output Management by Andy Grove, like probably two to three times a year. Um, I shouldn’t read it multiple times. It’s not like, I don’t understand it just like recenters me on, on like, um, process, actually a lot about process and a lot about frameworks. So that’s a good one for your aunts. That is a great one. Most entertaining person. You follow online.

Patrick:

Nathan Latka. I think Nathan is, I know Nathan really well, and I’m, I’ve crowned myself the biggest Nathan defender for those of you don’t know, he’s, he’s kind of this like trollish guy, but he’s not, I love him too. He’s awesome. Like he knows. Yeah. He’s unapologetically like, like aggressive online sometimes. And that’s where people think he’s like a blowhard, but he’s actually a really nice guy, and he’s like very smart. And I just like him as a human.

Chris:

And you probably like them because I know I spent like five hours in profit. Well, before I went on his show because I knew he was going to grill me on everything. 

Patrick:

Yeah. That’s true. That’s good. And last question. What’s one app you can’t live without? 

Patrick:

Let me look at my phone here. I mean, everyone’s going to go like, Oh my calendar, uh, which is kinda true. Um, I was going to say my Delta app cause I was flying so much. This is the longest I’ve been without like flying in the past five years. It’s just kind of insane. Um, I’m going to go with, I’ve been rocking audible for a good like six months. Um, I wasn’t a big like audiobook guy and then now I’m just like constant. So when I walk the dog, when I’m out,  Jenny gets annoyed by it cause I’ll just be having my headphones on in the house, and she wants to talk to me and I just go, but yeah. Awesome. Good one. 

Chris:

Okay. So just as we wrap it up, if people want to connect with you, you guys put out such amazing reports and resources, where can they go to learn more?

Patrick:

Yeah. If you have any questions on light, anything related to pricing monetization, doesn’t matter if you’re a subscription business or not profitable.com/blog. We have so much content. We publish so many studies. Um, in addition to that, um, uh, I’m just Patrick@profitwell.com, happy to chat. Um, sometimes it takes me awhile to get back to you, but I eventually do. Um, and then I’m just Patrick Campbell on LinkedIn. 

Chris:

Amazing. Patrick, thank you so much. This was super valuable for everyone listening. So go check out ProfitWell. Thanks again for being here.

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